Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church  (Read 1989 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DigitalLogos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8316
  • Reputation: +4706/-754
  • Gender: Male
  • Slave to the Sacred Heart
    • Twitter
Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
« on: April 27, 2022, 05:23:09 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!2
  • From The Selected Writings of Girolamo Savonarola; there's a sermon wherein he lays out ten signs of God's displeasure with the Church that indicate a coming Renewal. It was prophetic of his time with the later Counter-Reformation after the chastisement that was the Protestant Revolution for the decadence of the Renaissance. Yet, also coincides even more strongly, in my opinion, with our own time.


    Quote
    Let us now begin with the reasons I have been citing for many years gone by, which demonstrate and prove the [coming] renewal of the Church.
    Some reasons are probable, and, so, they can be contradicted. Others are demonstrable and, so, cannot be contradicted because they are founded upon Holy Scripture. Those which I will tell you are all demonstrable, all founded on Holy Scripture.

    The first is propter pollutionem praelatorum [On account of the uncleanness of prelates]. When you see a good head,
    you say that the body is well; when the head is bad, woe to the body. So,
    when God allows ambition, lechery, and other vices to be [found] in the head of government, believe that God’s scourge is near. I [will] prove it to you: go, read IV Kings about Sedecias’ end, where it says: Dominus irascebatur contra Jerusalem [IV Reg. 24:20]. Item, in I Kings, where it says that God allowed David [sic; Saul?] to sin in order to punish the people. One reads the same about Manasses [IV Reg. 24:3]. So, when you see God permitting the heads of the Church to overflow with wickedness and simony,
    say that the scourge of the people draws near. I do not say that it is [now] in the heads of the Church; I say when you see it.

    The second is propter absumptionem [On account of the removal] of the good and the just. Whenever God takes away the holy and the good, say that the scourge is near. This can be proved: when God wanted to send the Flood, He removed Noe and his family [Gen. 6]. Item, He rescued Lot from Sodom when He wanted to burn it [Gen. 19]. Consider how many men can be found nowadays whom you can call just and good, and so, say that the scourge is near and that the wrath and the sword of God has moved.

    The third is propter exclusionem iustorum [On account of the exclusion of the just]. When you see that a lord or leader of government does not want the good and the just near him, but banishes them because he does not want the truth to be told, say that God’s scourge is near.

    The fourth is propter desiderium iustorum [On account of the desire of the just]. When you see that all men of good life desire and call for the scourge, believe that it has to come soon.
    Look today and see if everyone cries out for the scourge; believe me, Florence, your punishment would already have come if it were not for the prayers and devotions of the good; believe me that today you would be a wasteland.

    The fifth is propter obstinationem peccatorum [On account of the obstinacy of sinners]. When sinners are obstinate and do not want to be converted to God and neither value nor appreciate those who call them to the good way, but always go from bad to worse and are obstinate in their vices, say that God is angry. This reason and the two preceding can be proved by what God did to Jerusalem, when He sent so many prophets and holy men to try to convert that people, but they remained obstinate and hunted down the prophets and stoned them, while all the good seemed to be crying out for the scourge. Likewise, many miracles were sent to Pharaoh, but He remained obstinate [Ex. 7–10]. And so, Florence, expect the scourge, since you know how long you have been told to be converted, and yet you have remained obstinate. And you, Rome, Rome!
    You, too, have been told, and yet you remain in your obstinacy, and so expect the wrath of God.

    The sixth is propter multitudinem peccatorum [On account of a multitude of sinners]. Because of David’s pride the plague was sent [II Reg. 24]. Consider whether Rome is full of pride, lust, avarice, and simony! Consider whether her sins are continually multiplied, and say, therefore, that the scourge is near, and the renewal of the Church is near.

    The seventh is propter exclusionem virtutum primarum, scilicet charitatis et fidei [On account of disregard for the primary virtues, that is, charity and faith]. In the time of the early Church, no one lived without complete faith and complete charity. Consider how much of these are in the world today.
    You, Florence, want to look after your ambition instead, and everyone promotes himself. Believe that you have no remedy but penance, for the scourge of God is near.

    The eighth is propter negationem credendorum [On account of the denial of belief]. Consider that today it seems that no one believes and has faith any more, and everyone, in effect,
    says, “So what?” When you see this, say that the scourge is near.

    The ninth is propter perditum cultum divinum [On account of the decay of divine worship]. Go, see what is done in God’s churches and with what devotion people attend. Today divine worship has run to ruin! You will say, “Oh, there are so many religious and so many priests, more than there have ever been before! Would that we had fewer!” O clergy, clergy, propter te orta est haec tempestas! [Because of you this storm has arisen!] [approximates Ion. 1:12] You are the cause of all this wickedness! And yet, everyone thinks himself blessed if he has a priest in the house. But I tell you that the time will come,
    and soon, when they will say, “Blessed is that house without a tonsure in it!”

    The tenth is propter universalem opinionem [On account of universal opinion]. See, everyone seems to be preaching and waiting for the scourge and tribulations, and everyone seems to feel it would be just that punishment for such great iniquity should come.
    The abbot Joachim [da Fiore] and many others preach and announce that this scourge has to come at this time. These are the reasons why I have preached to you about the renewal of the Church.
    -p. 63-65

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline AMDGJMJ

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2696
    • Reputation: +1546/-64
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #1 on: April 27, 2022, 10:15:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Is this the same person who was excommunicated by the Church and burned for his heresies? :confused:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #2 on: April 27, 2022, 10:24:40 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Is this the same person who was excommunicated by the Church and burned for his heresies? :confused:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola
    Wikipedia is not a good source.

    Falsely accused and burned. Pope Alexander VI excommunicated him, yes, but then turned around and allowed him confession, communion and gave him a special indulgence before his execution. Which is odd given that he was "excommunicated".

    Several Popes after his martyrdom, including St. Pius X and Pius XII, honored Savonarola greatly. St. Pius V declared his writings free of heresy, schism and other errors.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8901
    • Reputation: +8675/-849
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #3 on: April 27, 2022, 10:32:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Great find DL!

    I'd never heard of him  :confused:

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline StLouisIX

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1301
    • Reputation: +966/-115
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #4 on: April 27, 2022, 10:33:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is this the same person who was excommunicated by the Church and burned for his heresies? :confused:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola

    To add on to what DL wrote, Savonarola wrote The Triumph of the Cross as a defense of the Faith, but also as a means of defending himself against the accusation of heresy. It has been said that Michelangelo often carried around this book. I have read some of it, and what I have read, I have found to be excellent. 

    http://traditio-op.org/biblioteca/Savonarola/The-Triumph-of-the-Cross.pdf


    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #5 on: April 28, 2022, 01:40:20 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Great find DL!

    I'd never heard of him  :confused:
    There's another thread on Savonarola started the other day with a great conference by Michael Davies on him.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/girolamo-savonarola-lecture-by-michael-davies/msg821261/?topicseen#msg821261
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7610
    • Reputation: +617/-404
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #6 on: April 29, 2022, 01:12:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is this the same person who was excommunicated by the Church and burned for his heresies? :confused:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola
    Yes :incense:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7610
    • Reputation: +617/-404
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #7 on: April 29, 2022, 01:19:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Wikipedia is not a good source.

    Falsely accused and burned. Pope Alexander VI excommunicated him, yes, but then turned around and allowed him confession, communion and gave him a special indulgence before his execution. Which is odd given that he was "excommunicated".

    Several Popes after his martyrdom, including St. Pius X and Pius XII, honored Savonarola greatly. St. Pius V declared his writings free of heresy, schism and other errors.

    The reason Savanarola was given the indulgence of being strangled( as opposed to Burned) was because HE ADMITTED TO COMMITTING HERESY... :pray:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #8 on: April 29, 2022, 01:27:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The reason Savanarola was given the indulgence of being strangled( as opposed to Burned) was because HE ADMITTED TO COMMITTING HERESY... :pray:
    Under torture. Hardly what one could call a lucid confession.

    Also, what heresy? Again, recall that St. Pius V later declared his writings free of heresy.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2232
    • Reputation: +829/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #9 on: April 29, 2022, 04:21:08 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Renewal in a certain manner of speaking, yes. 

    Savonarola is among the just in Paradise. 



    Quote
    Matthew 23


    [36] Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. [37] Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? [38] Behold, your house shall be left to you, desolate. [39] For I say to you, you shall not see me henceforth till you say: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 23 (drbo.org)


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7610
    • Reputation: +617/-404
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #10 on: April 29, 2022, 08:55:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Under torture. Hardly what one could call a lucid confession.

    Also, what heresy? Again, recall that St. Pius V later declared his writings free of heresy.
    The Church allows torture in some cases. I cannot remember what he was specifically accused of but he did admit to it... :incense:  
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11662
    • Reputation: +6989/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #11 on: April 29, 2022, 08:59:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church allows torture in some cases. I cannot remember what he was specifically accused of but he did admit to it... :incense: 
    Then do some research instead of incensing yourself.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Kephapaulos

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1802
    • Reputation: +456/-15
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #12 on: May 23, 2022, 11:46:57 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Before it ends for my time zone, let us remember Fra Savonarola, O.P. for today on this his day of execution: 23 May, A.D. 1498. Requiescat in pace et oret pro nobis!

    I remember seeing his cell, where he preached, and where he was executed. 

    Here is some music inspired by him:



    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3542
    • Reputation: +1097/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #13 on: May 24, 2022, 07:21:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Savonarola is among the just in Paradise.
    Where did you get the authority to declare this?

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Savonarola's signs of the coming Renewal of the Church
    « Reply #14 on: May 24, 2022, 07:34:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Where did you get the authority to declare this?
    He doesn't. It's just an opinion. That's kind of how the cult of saints start out, with an opinion of someone being in heaven.

    He's in good company thinking as much anyway.


    Fra Girolamo, ora pro nobis!
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]