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Author Topic: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.  (Read 71267 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2025, 06:32:44 AM »
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  • Pastor Aeternus:

    Chapter 4. On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff
    • That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching.
      • This holy see has always maintained this,
      • the constant custom of the church demonstrates it, and
      • the ecuмenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it.
      [councils]
    • So the fathers of the fourth council of Constantinople, following the footsteps of their predecessors, published this solemn profession of faith:
      • The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [55] , cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the apostolic see preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion [56] .
      What is more, with the approval of the second council of Lyons, the Greeks made the following profession:
      • “The holy Roman church possesses the supreme and full primacy and principality over the whole catholic church. She truly and humbly acknowledges that she received this from the Lord himself in blessed Peter, the prince and chief of the apostles, whose successor the Roman pontiff is, together with the fullness of power. And since before all others she has the duty of defending the truth of the faith, so if any questions arise concerning the faith, it is by her judgment that they must be settled.” [57]
      Then there is the definition of the council of Florence:
      • “The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” [58]
      [Holy See]
    • To satisfy this pastoral office, our predecessors strove unwearyingly that the saving teaching of Christ should be spread among all the peoples of the world; and with equal care they made sure that it should be kept pure and uncontaminated wherever it was received.[Custom]
    • It was for this reason that the bishops of the whole world, sometimes individually, sometimes gathered in synods, according to the long established custom of the churches and the pattern of ancient usage referred to this apostolic see those dangers especially which arose in matters concerning the faith. This was to ensure that any damage suffered by the faith should be repaired in that place above all where the faith can know no failing [59] .[Holy See]
    • The Roman pontiffs, too, as the circuмstances of the time or the state of affairs suggested, sometimes by


      • summoning ecuмenical councils or
      • consulting the opinion of the churches scattered throughout the world, sometimes by
      • special synods, sometimes by
      • taking advantage of other useful means afforded by divine providence,
    • defined as doctrines to be held those things which, by God’s help, they knew to be in keeping with
      • sacred scripture and
      • the apostolic traditions.
    • For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter
      • not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
      • but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.
      Indeed, their apostolic teaching was
      • embraced by all the venerable fathers and
      • reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors,
      for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60] .
    • This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.
    • But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.
    • Therefore,
      • faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
      • to the glory of God our saviour,
      • for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
      • for the salvation of the christian people,
      • with the approval of the sacred council,

      • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
        • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
          • that is, when,
          • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
          • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
          • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
        • he possesses,
          • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
        • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
        • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

      So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.
    Chapter 4. On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff
    • That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching.
      • This holy see has always maintained this,
      • the constant custom of the church demonstrates it, and
      • the ecuмenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it.
      [councils]
    • So the fathers of the fourth council of Constantinople, following the footsteps of their predecessors, published this solemn profession of faith:
      • The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [55] , cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the apostolic see preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion [56] .
      What is more, with the approval of the second council of Lyons, the Greeks made the following profession:
      • “The holy Roman church possesses the supreme and full primacy and principality over the whole catholic church. She truly and humbly acknowledges that she received this from the Lord himself in blessed Peter, the prince and chief of the apostles, whose successor the Roman pontiff is, together with the fullness of power. And since before all others she has the duty of defending the truth of the faith, so if any questions arise concerning the faith, it is by her judgment that they must be settled.” [57]
      Then there is the definition of the council of Florence:
      • “The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” [58]
      [Holy See]
    • To satisfy this pastoral office, our predecessors strove unwearyingly that the saving teaching of Christ should be spread among all the peoples of the world; and with equal care they made sure that it should be kept pure and uncontaminated wherever it was received.[Custom]
    • It was for this reason that the bishops of the whole world, sometimes individually, sometimes gathered in synods, according to the long established custom of the churches and the pattern of ancient usage referred to this apostolic see those dangers especially which arose in matters concerning the faith. This was to ensure that any damage suffered by the faith should be repaired in that place above all where the faith can know no failing [59] .[Holy See]
    • The Roman pontiffs, too, as the circuмstances of the time or the state of affairs suggested,
      • sometimes by
        • summoning ecuмenical councils or
        • consulting the opinion of the churches scattered throughout the world, sometimes by
        • special synods, sometimes by
        • taking advantage of other useful means afforded by divine providence,
      • defined as doctrines to be held those things which, by God’s help, they knew to be in keeping with
        • sacred scripture and
        • the apostolic traditions.
    • For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter
      • not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
      • but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.
      Indeed, their apostolic teaching was
      • embraced by all the venerable fathers and
      • reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors,
      for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60] .
    • This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.
    • But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.
    • Therefore,
      • faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
      • to the glory of God our saviour,
      • for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
      • for the salvation of the christian people,
      • with the approval of the sacred council,

      • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
        • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
          • that is, when,
          • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
          • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
          • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
        • he possesses,
          • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
        • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
        • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

      So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.




    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #61 on: November 15, 2025, 06:48:17 AM »
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  • Here is the whole docuмent (having trouble copying and pasting):


    SESSION 4 : 18 July 1870
    First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ
    Pius, bishop, servant of the servants of God, with the approval of the sacred council, for an everlasting record.
    • The eternal shepherd and guardian of our souls [37] ,
      • in order to render permanent the saving work of redemption,
      • determined to build a church
      • in which,
        • as in the house of the living God,
      • all the faithful should be linked by the bond of one
        • faith and
        • charity.
    • Therefore, before he was glorified,
      • he besought his Father,
        • not for the apostles only,
        • but also for those who were to believe in him through their word,
        that they all might be one as the Son himself and the Father are one [38] .
    • So then,
      • just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world [39] ,
      • even as he had been sent by the Father [40],
      • in like manner it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.
    • In order, then, that
      • the episcopal office should be one and undivided and that,
      • by the union of the clergy,
      • the whole multitude of believers should be held together in the unity of
        • faith and
        • communion,
      • he set blessed Peter over the rest of the apostles and
      • instituted in him the permanent principle of both unities and
      • their visible foundation.
    • Upon the strength of this foundation was to be built the eternal temple, and the church whose topmost part reaches heaven was to rise upon the firmness of this foundation [41] .
    • And since the gates of hell trying, if they can, to overthrow the church, make their assault with a hatred that increases day by day against its divinely laid foundation,
      • we judge it necessary,
        • with the approbation of the sacred council, and
        • for the protection, defence and growth of the catholic flock,
      • to propound the doctrine concerning the
        • institution,
        • permanence and
        • nature
      • of the sacred and apostolic primacy,
      • upon which the strength and coherence of the whole church depends.
    • This doctrine is to be believed and held by all the faithful in accordance with the ancient and unchanging faith of the whole church.
    • Furthermore, we shall proscribe and condemn the contrary errors which are so harmful to the Lord’s flock.
    Return to Table of Contents
    Chapter 1 On the institution of the apostolic primacy in blessed Peter
    • We teach and declare that,
      • according to the gospel evidence,
      • a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole church of God
      • was immediately and directly
        • promised to the blessed apostle Peter and
        • conferred on him by Christ the lord.
      [PROMISED]
    • It was to Simon alone,
      • to whom he had already said
        • You shall be called Cephas [42] ,
      that the Lord,
      • after his confession, You are the Christ, the son of the living God,
      spoke these words:
      • Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
      • And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the underworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [43] .
      [CONFERRED]
    • And it was to Peter alone that Jesus,
      • after his resurrection,
      confided the jurisdiction of supreme pastor and ruler of his whole fold, saying:
      • Feed my lambs, feed my sheep [44] .
    • To this absolutely manifest teaching of the sacred scriptures, as it has always been understood by the catholic church, are clearly opposed the distorted opinions of those who misrepresent the form of government which Christ the lord established in his church and deny that Peter, in preference to the rest of the apostles, taken singly or collectively, was endowed by Christ with a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction.
    • The same may be said of those who assert that this primacy was not conferred immediately and directly on blessed Peter himself, but rather on the church, and that it was through the church that it was transmitted to him in his capacity as her minister.
    • Therefore,
      • if anyone says that
        • blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant; or that
        • it was a primacy of honour only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself:
        let him be anathema.
    Return to Table of Contents
    Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs
    • That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ’s authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45] .
    • For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood [46] .
    • Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received [47] .
    • For this reason it has always been necessary for every church–that is to say the faithful throughout the world–to be in agreement with the Roman church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body [48] .
    • Therefore,
      • if anyone says that
        • it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that
        • the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy:
        let him be anathema.
    Return to Table of Contents
    Chapter 3. On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff
    • And so,
      • supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and
      • adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors
        • the Roman pontiffs and of
        • general councils,
      • we promulgate anew the definition of the ecuмenical council of Florence [49] ,
      • which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that
        • the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that
        • the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter,
          • the prince of the apostles,
          • true vicar of Christ,
          • head of the whole church and
          • father and teacher of all christian people.
        • To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to
          • tend,
          • rule and govern
          • the universal church.
      All this is to be found in the acts of the ecuмenical councils and the sacred canons.
    • Wherefore we teach and declare that,
      • by divine ordinance,
      • the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that
      • this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both
        • episcopal and
        • immediate.
      • Both clergy and faithful,
        • of whatever rite and dignity,
        • both singly and collectively,
      • are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this
        • not only in matters concerning faith and morals,
        • but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.
    • In this way, by unity with the Roman pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the church of Christ becomes one flock under one supreme shepherd [50] .
    • This is the teaching of the catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation.
    • This power of the supreme pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the supreme and universal pastor; for St Gregory the Great says: “My honour is the honour of the whole church. My honour is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honour, when it is denied to none of those to whom honour is due.” [51]
    • Furthermore, it follows from that supreme power which the Roman pontiff has in governing the whole church, that he has the right, in the performance of this office of his, to communicate freely with the pastors and flocks of the entire church, so that they may be taught and guided by him in the way of salvation.
    • And therefore we condemn and reject the opinions of those who hold that
      • this communication of the supreme head with pastors and flocks may be lawfully obstructed; or that
      • it should be dependent on the civil power, which leads them to maintain that what is determined by the apostolic see or by its authority concerning the government of the church, has no force or effect unless it is confirmed by the agreement of the civil authority.
    • Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that
      • he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that
      • in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] .
      • The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone,
      • nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54] . And so
      • they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff.
    • So, then,
      • if anyone says that
        • the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and
          • not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this
          • not only in matters of
            • faith and morals, but also in those which concern the
            • discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that
        • he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that
        • this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
        let him be anathema.
    Return to Table of Contents
    Chapter 4. On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff
    • That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching.
      • This holy see has always maintained this,
      • the constant custom of the church demonstrates it, and
      • the ecuмenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it.
      [councils]
    • So the fathers of the fourth council of Constantinople, following the footsteps of their predecessors, published this solemn profession of faith:
      • The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [55] , cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the apostolic see preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion [56] .
      What is more, with the approval of the second council of Lyons, the Greeks made the following profession:
      • “The holy Roman church possesses the supreme and full primacy and principality over the whole catholic church. She truly and humbly acknowledges that she received this from the Lord himself in blessed Peter, the prince and chief of the apostles, whose successor the Roman pontiff is, together with the fullness of power. And since before all others she has the duty of defending the truth of the faith, so if any questions arise concerning the faith, it is by her judgment that they must be settled.” [57]
      Then there is the definition of the council of Florence:
      • “The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” [58]
      [Holy See]
    • To satisfy this pastoral office, our predecessors strove unwearyingly that the saving teaching of Christ should be spread among all the peoples of the world; and with equal care they made sure that it should be kept pure and uncontaminated wherever it was received.[Custom]
    • It was for this reason that the bishops of the whole world, sometimes individually, sometimes gathered in synods, according to the long established custom of the churches and the pattern of ancient usage referred to this apostolic see those dangers especially which arose in matters concerning the faith. This was to ensure that any damage suffered by the faith should be repaired in that place above all where the faith can know no failing [59] .[Holy See]
    • The Roman pontiffs, too, as the circuмstances of the time or the state of affairs suggested,
      • sometimes by
        • summoning ecuмenical councils or
        • consulting the opinion of the churches scattered throughout the world, sometimes by
        • special synods, sometimes by
        • taking advantage of other useful means afforded by divine providence,
      • defined as doctrines to be held those things which, by God’s help, they knew to be in keeping with
        • sacred scripture and
        • the apostolic traditions.
    • For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter
      • not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
      • but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.
      Indeed, their apostolic teaching was
      • embraced by all the venerable fathers and
      • reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors,
      for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60] .
    • This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.
    • But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.
    • Therefore,
      • faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
      • to the glory of God our saviour,
      • for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
      • for the salvation of the christian people,
      • with the approval of the sacred council,

      • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
        • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
          • that is, when,
          • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
          • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
          • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
        • he possesses,
          • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
        • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
        • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

      So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.



    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #62 on: November 15, 2025, 10:18:39 AM »
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  • Stubborn, in my next post is the whole docuмent, Pastor Aeternus. You stress the word “only” when you write:


    “the *only* time the pope is prevented from the possibility of preaching error via the divine protection, is when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. That is the defined dogma.”


    Please point out where the word “only” is used with regard to the divine protection against preaching error?
    The word "only" is from me, not V1. The reason I used "only" is because the definition does not include divine protection for (quoting Lad here):  "disciplinary matters, promulgate a form of Public Worship, and Rite of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that is offensive to God and harmful to souls, canonizations and in the general Canon Law of the Universal Church."

    The dogma clearly states that papal infallibility is strictly conditional, that is, there is one and *only* one condition when the pope is infallible, that is when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. That IS dogma. Per V1, we cannot add anything to the dogma or subtract anything from it....as they said:

    "Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."

    Everyone who expands upon the definition as Lad did, is in fact abandoning the sense of the dogma under the pretext of a more profound understanding of it - exactly what V1 said we "must never" do. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #63 on: November 15, 2025, 10:24:21 AM »
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  • That is not what it says or implies at all. Per Vi, the *only* time the pope is prevented from the possibility of preaching error via the divine protection, is when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. That is the defined dogma.

    That's the dogma, and they even repeat it twice because they wanted to be sure that there can be no mistaking it, because can you imagine the scandal it would cause for the faithful to believe that popes cannot preach heresy? We'd have all the faithful going along with V2....

    "We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that  when the Roman pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when... he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals."

    Should the pope preach heresy, he does not have divine protection. That's what it says, as you posted: "For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles."

    They are not saying that the pope cannot preach heresies, what they ARE saying is that IF a pope  preaches heresies, he will not be under any protection from Holy Ghost.

    What you are referring to in Pastor Aeternus, correctly, as "the Dogma" is what is considered to be, by the Church, part of the infallible "Extraordinary Magisterium." Specifically, the Extraordinary teaching is the ex Cathedra stuff (section 4.9).

    The part that I was referring to (and others are referring to) is the similar infallible teaching on the Papal infallibility considered, by the Church, as part of the infallible "Ordinary and Universal Magisterium." The Ordinary and Universal teaching is that the true Roman Pontiff will not fall into heresy or apostasy (defect from the Faith) because he is protected by the Holy Spirit. The true, legitimate head of the Church will not defect in matters of Faith and Morals. This is also Bellarmine's First Opinion. Pastor Aeternus confirms Bellarmine's First Opinion and the Ordinary and Universal teaching on the subject as the correct one regarding a true Pope not being able to fall into heresy, properly defined. That is the meaning of sections 4.6 and 4.7 and why they are a part of the docuмent. That was not a new teaching. It was a very old teaching, accepted by all Catholics. These two sections are used as infallible premises for the definition of the new Extraordinary teaching in 4.9.

    Both the Extraordinary Magisterium and the Ordinary and Univeral Magisterium are considered to be equally infallible and irreformable, but they are manifested in different ways. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #64 on: November 15, 2025, 10:40:17 AM »
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  • What you are referring to in Pastor Aeternus, correctly, as "the Dogma" is what is considered to be, by the Church, part of the infallible "Extraordinary Magisterium." Specifically, the Extraordinary teaching is the ex Cathedra stuff (section 4.9).

    The part that I was referring to (and others are referring to) is the similar infallible teaching on the Papal infallibility considered, by the Church, as part of the infallible "Ordinary and Universal Magisterium." The Ordinary and Universal teaching is that the true Roman Pontiff will not fall into heresy or apostasy (defect from the Faith) because he is protected by the Holy Spirit. The true, legitimate head of the Church will not defect in matters of Faith and Morals. This is also Bellarmine's First Opinion. Pastor Aeternus confirms Bellarmine's First Opinion and the Ordinary and Universal teaching on the subject as the correct one regarding a true Pope not being able to fall into heresy, properly defined. That is the meaning of sections 4.6 and 4.7 and why they are a part of the docuмent. That was not a new teaching. It was a very old teaching, accepted by all Catholics. These two sections are used as infallible premises for the definition of the new Extraordinary teaching in 4.9.

    Both the Extraordinary Magisterium and the Ordinary and Univeral Magisterium are considered to be equally infallible and irreformable, but they are manifested in different ways.
    This is not true. Like the Extraordinary Magisterium, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is indeed infallible, always. Can never be anything but infallible always. BUT, the UOM does *not* teach "that the true Roman Pontiff will not fall into heresy or apostasy (defect from the Faith) because he is protected by the Holy Spirit." I already showed this is false per V1 in my last posts.

    But if that is what the OUM teaches, then aside from 1) the dogma defined at V1 absolutely disagrees with the UOM, 2) all trads are wrong and must abandon the true religion and embrace the new religion of V2 - because of what you say the UOM teaches - which it doesn't, but if it did.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #65 on: November 15, 2025, 11:06:56 AM »
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  • This is not true. Like the Extraordinary Magisterium, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is indeed infallible, always. Can never be anything but infallible always. BUT, the UOM does *not* teach "that the true Roman Pontiff will not fall into heresy or apostasy (defect from the Faith) because he is protected by the Holy Spirit." I already showed this is false per V1 in my last posts.

    But if that is what the OUM teaches, then aside from 1) the dogma defined at V1 absolutely disagrees with the UOM, 2) all trads are wrong and must abandon the true religion and embrace the new religion of V2 - because of what you say the UOM teaches - which it doesn't, but if it did.

    You say, "all trads are wrong and must abandon the true religion and embrace the new religion of V2. 

    No, it does not meant that at all. It means that if "heresies" were taught by "the Pope" himself, then that person was not a true Pope. That is the Sedevacantist position, related to indefectibility of the Church. 

    Another solution to the problem is that the things that "the Pope taught" which are being called "heresies" are not what the Church has always referred to as "heresies" per se. So there is a mistake being made in expanding the definition of a heresy. The Pope can definitely err in certain matters. But he cannot fall into heresy properly understood.

    Another solution is that there really were heresies, properly understood, being taught by officials in "the Church." And these heretical officials (Cardinals/Bishops) knew that in order for Catholics to follow these teachings they needed to make it APPEAR that the true Pope was the teacher of the heresies. So they got control of his "pen" and prevented the Pope from correcting the errors. This is the infiltration narrative. 

    Then we have the definitely false R&R narrative, which you try to push on us. That not only can the true Pope err in certain matters of prudence and discipline, but he can become a complete, outright HERETIC and still be the legitimate head of the Roman Catholic Church. This is not supported by traditional Catholic teaching and makes a mockery of the Church, as others have tried, unsuccessfully, to point out to you. Yes, a Pope can make mistakes in certain matters and it is okay to resist him respectfully as St. Paul says when speaking of his correction of Cephas (Peter), but the true Pope is not able to teach a true heresy. The Holy Spirit will not allow it. On the other hand, all bets are off with an antipope because the person does not have the divine protection.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #66 on: November 15, 2025, 01:20:49 PM »
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  • You say, "all trads are wrong and must abandon the true religion and embrace the new religion of V2.

    No, it does not meant that at all. It means that if "heresies" were taught by "the Pope" himself, then that person was not a true Pope. That is the Sedevacantist position, related to indefectibility of the Church.
    Yes, I say that because if the UOM teaches, as you said: "that the true Roman Pontiff will not fall into heresy or apostasy (defect from the Faith) because he is protected by the Holy Spirit" then we have no choice whatsoever in the matter - per the UOM we are bound to follow the pope because he is always protected by the Holy Spirit. Which means that trads are wrong and have been wrong and the NO is the true religion and has been since this so-called "crisis" started.  

    Also, I know that's the sede position, but with all due respect, in light of V1 that position is ridiculous. 

    V1 clearly defines when the pope is infallible. This definition *must* agree with the UOM or one of them is wrong - which is altogether impossible. All V1 did was define that which the UOM has always taught. 

    Referencing V1, I do not know how it is possible for anyone to say what you said - "if "heresies" were taught by "the Pope" himself, then that person was not a true Pope" because that implication is not in there.  


    Quote
    Another solution to the problem is that the things that "the Pope taught" which are being called "heresies" are not what the Church has always referred to as "heresies" per se. So there is a mistake being made in expanding the definition of a heresy. The Pope can definitely err in certain matters. But he cannot fall into heresy properly understood.

    Another solution is that there really were heresies, properly understood, being taught by officials in "the Church." And these heretical officials (Cardinals/Bishops) knew that in order for Catholics to follow these teachings they needed to make it APPEAR that the true Pope was the teacher of the heresies. So they got control of his "pen" and prevented the Pope from correcting the errors. This is the infiltration narrative.  
    Well, one thing is certain, the conciliar popes have most certainly taught/teach/promulgate heresies and errors. I mean, it is pretty basic, when something is taught that is contrary to the faith, to what the Church has always taught, it's heresy - no matter who preaches it. 


    Quote
    Then we have the definitely false R&R narrative, which you try to push on us. That not only can the true Pope err in certain matters of prudence and discipline, but he can become a complete, outright HERETIC and still be the legitimate head of the Roman Catholic Church. This is not supported by traditional Catholic teaching and makes a mockery of the Church, as others have tried, unsuccessfully, to point out to you. Yes, a Pope can make mistakes in certain matters and it is okay to resist him respectfully as St. Paul says when speaking of his correction of Cephas (Peter), but the true Pope is not able to teach a true heresy. The Holy Spirit will not allow it. On the other hand, all bets are off with an antipope because the person does not have the divine protection.
    All I have to do is repeat the dogma of papal infallibility - per the dogma the only time the pope cannot err is when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. For whatever reason, sedes feel it necessary or they are obligated to add on and on to the defined dogma. 

    Note that it is only after proclaiming that the Church has additional criteria and requirements above and beyond the infallible definition of V1, that they form their conclusion. 

    As I have said, I hope the sedes are right. I do not think they are, but for their sake, I certainly hope they are. FWIW, I have a  a number of departed sede faithful that I pray for their souls every day and have done so for decades. I really do hope they're right.
     


     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #67 on: November 15, 2025, 03:26:39 PM »
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  • Yes, I say that because if the UOM teaches, as you said: "that the true Roman Pontiff will not fall into heresy or apostasy (defect from the Faith) because he is protected by the Holy Spirit" then we have no choice whatsoever in the matter - per the UOM we are bound to follow the pope because he is always protected by the Holy Spirit. Which means that trads are wrong and have been wrong and the NO is the true religion and has been since this so-called "crisis" started. 

    Also, I know that's the sede position, but with all due respect, in light of V1 that position is ridiculous.

    V1 clearly defines when the pope is infallible. This definition *must* agree with the UOM or one of them is wrong - which is altogether impossible. All V1 did was define that which the UOM has always taught.

    Referencing V1, I do not know how it is possible for anyone to say what you said - "if "heresies" were taught by "the Pope" himself, then that person was not a true Pope" because that implication is not in there. 

    Well, one thing is certain, the conciliar popes have most certainly taught/teach/promulgate heresies and errors. I mean, it is pretty basic, when something is taught that is contrary to the faith, to what the Church has always taught, it's heresy - no matter who preaches it.

    All I have to do is repeat the dogma of papal infallibility - per the dogma the only time the pope cannot err is when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. For whatever reason, sedes feel it necessary or they are obligated to add on and on to the defined dogma.

    Note that it is only after proclaiming that the Church has additional criteria and requirements above and beyond the infallible definition of V1, that they form their conclusion.

    As I have said, I hope the sedes are right. I do not think they are, but for their sake, I certainly hope they are. FWIW, I have a  a number of departed sede faithful that I pray for their souls every day and have done so for decades. I really do hope they're right.

    The Sede position is not ridiculous. It may be incorrect based on the historical facts. But doctrinally, the Sede position is in line with the traditional teaching about the Pope.

    That a papal claimant (note I did not say Pope) truly teaches a "heresy," then that is proof, in and of itself, that the papal claimant is not a true Pope. The Sedes are absolutely correct on that. That he either was never validly-elected because of some secret defect or whatever.

    The idea that a true Pope could be a "heretic" is asinine and blasphemous. It mocks Jesus's promise that Peter is the "rock on which the Church shall be built." Every successor of Peter is that "Rock," not just Simon bar Jona.

    But there are many examples of "Peters," starting with Simon bar Jona himself, that reveal the potential for human weakness in these men. The worst Pope might have been John XII (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08426b.htm). From that CE article we read:

    "John was accused of sacrilege, simony, perjury, murder, adultery, and incest, and was summoned in writing to defend himself."

    Note, however, of all the sins John XII was accused of, heresy was not one of them. That is because the Holy Spirit does not allow the true Pope to be a heretic, in the proper meaning of that word.

    But trads of all types throw around the word "heretic" as if it is the same thing as "sacrilege" or "impiety." Heresy is a defection from the true Faith. Sacrilege or impiety is an horrible offense against God or sacred things. They are not the same thing as any manual of Moral Theology will tell you.

    The other things that trads of all types do is rush to judgment about the actions of the Popes, as if they know all the details of exactly what happened in the distant past. This is arrogant.

    We don't know if Paul VI understood exactly what the Freemason infiltrators in the Vatican were doing. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't.

    And we don't need to rush to judgment on that. We can know that the false Novus Ordo sacraments are to be avoided simply because the Church has always taught that the "substance of the sacraments" cannot be changed, by the Pope or anyone else. They are counterfeits and must be avoided, no matter what an evil or confused or weak or ignorant Pope might say.

    The Pope cannot overrule a previously laid down irreformable, infallible teaching of the Church. He doesn't have that power as Pastor Aeternus says here:

    "For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #68 on: November 15, 2025, 06:07:25 PM »
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  • The idea that a true Pope could be a "heretic" is asinine and blasphemous. It mocks Jesus's promise that Peter is the "rock on which the Church shall be built." Every successor of Peter is that "Rock," not just Simon bar Jona. 
    Wrong.  It was always a "pious belief" that the pope could not fall into heresy.

    The fact that it's possible, is why +Bellarmine and all those eminent theologians debated the issue at all.  If it wasn't possible AT ALL, then there would be no debate.

    The secondary question, "Could a heretic pope teach/promulgate heresy?" is the impossible part, for God wouldn't allow it.  

    But the primary question, "Could a valid pope fall into personal heresy?"  1,000% yes.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #69 on: November 15, 2025, 09:01:41 PM »
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  • Wrong.  It was always a "pious belief" that the pope could not fall into heresy.

    The fact that it's possible, is why +Bellarmine and all those eminent theologians debated the issue at all.  If it wasn't possible AT ALL, then there would be no debate.

    The secondary question, "Could a heretic pope teach/promulgate heresy?" is the impossible part, for God wouldn't allow it. 

    But the primary question, "Could a valid pope fall into personal heresy?"  1,000% yes.

    FWIW, what I said was in reference to Pastor Aeternus IV.6 and IV.7, which I had earlier quoted. The purpose of Peter not failing in the Faith is not about him "falling into personal heresy." It has to do with his teaching to the faithful. So we seem to agree. Here is the quote from Pastor Aeternus again:


    6. For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles. Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."[60]

    7. This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole Church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.

    Offline Stubborn

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  • The Sede position is not ridiculous. It may be incorrect based on the historical facts. But doctrinally, the Sede position is in line with the traditional teaching about the Pope.

    That a papal claimant (note I did not say Pope) truly teaches a "heresy," then that is proof, in and of itself, that the papal claimant is not a true Pope. The Sedes are absolutely correct on that. That he either was never validly-elected because of some secret defect or whatever.
    Here is your conundrum; first you said: "The Ordinary and Universal teaching is that the true Roman Pontiff will not fall into heresy or apostasy (defect from the Faith) because he is protected by the Holy Spirit. The true, legitimate head of the Church will not defect in matters of Faith and Morals." 

    IF that is the teaching, which it isn't, but if it were, then it is just as infallible as an ex cathedra declaration and as such, we are bound to believe it under pain of mortal sin. This means if popes were to preach heresies, that would serve only to prove the magisterium lied, or is wrong - it would not prove anything else, it especially *does not now* and never would prove popes are not popes - it would prove an infallible teaching is wrong....because in being bound to believe it, we would be bound to follow the pope in his heresies. 

    This is the problem, sedes use a felonious teaching as if it is a dogma to form at least an erroneous conclusion.

    Also, you of course realize that in all her teachings, popes are referred to as popes, or the Roman Pontiff, or Supreme Pontiff etc., NOWHERE does the magisterium teach about a so-called "papal claimant," or a "true, legitimate head of the Church."  These are adjectives you choose to use in order to slant your conclusion favorably toward your belief.   


    Quote
    The Pope cannot overrule a previously laid down irreformable, infallible teaching of the Church. He doesn't have that power as Pastor Aeternus says here:

    "For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles."
    He has the authority to do it, and he most certainly can do it as the conciliar popes demonstrate, - but as V1 says, the Holy Ghost was not promised to him if he does that. So he will not be protected from the possibility of error if he does that. THAT is the teaching of V1 in your quote above.  

    Stick with V1 - the pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. As Fr. Wathen puts it in The Great Sacrilege: "Whereas the Supreme Pontiff's authority is co-extensive with his jurisdiction, his infallibility is not. In fact, papal infallibility covers a most rigidly and specifically circuмscribed area, the most narrowly-defined, I might add, of all the areas of his sovereignty." 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Angelus

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  • Here is your conundrum; first you said: "The Ordinary and Universal teaching is that the true Roman Pontiff will not fall into heresy or apostasy (defect from the Faith) because he is protected by the Holy Spirit. The true, legitimate head of the Church will not defect in matters of Faith and Morals."

    IF that is the teaching, which it isn't, but if it were, then it is just as infallible as an ex cathedra declaration and as such, we are bound to believe it under pain of mortal sin. This means if popes were to preach heresies, that would serve only to prove the magisterium lied, or is wrong - it would not prove anything else, it especially *does not now* and never would prove popes are not popes - it would prove an infallible teaching is wrong....because in being bound to believe it, we would be bound to follow the pope in his heresies.

    This is the problem, sedes use a felonious teaching as if it is a dogma to form at least an erroneous conclusion.

    Also, you of course realize that in all her teachings, popes are referred to as popes, or the Roman Pontiff, or Supreme Pontiff etc., NOWHERE does the magisterium teach about a so-called "papal claimant," or a "true, legitimate head of the Church."  These are adjectives you choose to use in order to slant your conclusion favorably toward your belief. 

    He has the authority to do it, and he most certainly can do it as the conciliar popes demonstrate, - but as V1 says, the Holy Ghost was not promised to him if he does that. So he will not be protected from the possibility of error if he does that. THAT is the teaching of V1 in your quote above. 

    Stick with V1 - the pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. As Fr. Wathen puts it in The Great Sacrilege: "Whereas the Supreme Pontiff's authority is co-extensive with his jurisdiction, his infallibility is not. In fact, papal infallibility covers a most rigidly and specifically circuмscribed area, the most narrowly-defined, I might add, of all the areas of his sovereignty."

    My use of the phrases "papal claimant" as opposed to a "true, legitimate head of the Church" describe a universally recognized historical reality: it is possible that the person claiming to be the legitimate Pope is actually an antipope. 

    Do you deny that the Church has recognized many past "papal claimants" as actual antipopes? If so, you might want to read this:

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01582a.htm

    And you argue against a straw-man with your second point. I never said that Pastor Aeternus says the Pope will "be protected from the possibility of error." I said that the Pope is protected from teaching heresy. But, you will continue muddying up the waters by conflating "error" (which is a very broad term which includes any sin) and "heresy" (which is a very technically precise term that the Church has defined clearly).

    You don't care to understand the difference between these two terms because you would have to admit you have been wrong all of these years. Again, "error" is a generic term. "Heresy" is a species of "error." Not all "errors" are "heresies. But all "heresies" are "errors." 

    You, and many others, correctly recognize the "errors" of the post-VII Popes. No doubt they committed many greivous errors. Any Catholic recognizing those errors MUST NOT FOLLOW THEM in their errors. But committing error/sins  would not mean the "papal claimant" is not the Pope simply because he committed errors. But if the "papal claimant" was truly teaching heresy, then that would indicate that, somehow or other, he was never the Pope to begin with. 

    Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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  • Concerning A Sedevacantist Thesis
    November 1998 No. 29



    “Sedevacantists” have always constituted a particularly distant group in the Catholic resistance to the error of modernism.
    Their main characteristic is to be found in their manifest disregard of the Apostles' Creed in favor of their public support and
    adherence to a rather odd, to say the least, theological thesis. There have been certain occasions where "sedevacantist
    priests" have gone so far as to refuse the sacraments to faithful Catholics who sincerely profess the unchanging Creed of the
    Church, but who show no enthusiasm for their sedevacantist redemptive thesis, i.e., the Thesis of Cassissiacuм of which we
    will now give an analysis.
    BRIEF HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
    In 1977, a former professor of theology at the seminary at Ecône, Fr. Guérard de Lauriers, published a fanciful thesis with
    the intention of proving without a shadow of a doubt that Paul VI, Bishop of Rome, recognized and acknowledged by the
    entire visible Church, was not, in fact, Pope at all. This thesis is known under the title of Thesis of Cassissiacuм. This
    Father had previously attained widespread notoriety thanks to his incomprehensible courses. This thesis ran true to form.
    Literally no one could understand his "distinctions," for instance, between the "sessio" and the "missio." A handful of young
    priests, just a little while before ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre and, to say the least, greatly lacking in experience,
    imprudently gave themselves heart and soul to the defense and explanation of the Thesis of Cassissiacuм. They referred to
    themselves as "the syndicate." According to them, they were the true Thomists who simply could no longer put up with
    Archbishop Lefebvre's doctrinal infantilism. They soon left the Society of Saint Pius X and the "syndicate" then began to
    break up into rival tendencies, remaining united only in their deep-seated detestation of the very Bishop to whom they owed their ordination.
    Around 1980, there appeared a new "popular version" of the "sedevacantist thesis," the so-called Blignières-Lucien version. While side-stepping the core and essence of the
    earlier thesis, i.e., the distinction between "material pope" and "formal pope," it now concentrated on trying to make it plain for all to see that there had occurred a certain
    breakdown of papal infallibility, thus proving that the person who then seemed to be the pope could not in actual fact be the pope indeed. And so off they went, mouthing their
    inanities before an amazed audience made up of unqualified lay people full of admiration in the presence of such a great display of "theological science." Soon, in certain
    traditional chapels, there were to be found self-proclaimed theologians repeating and re-echoing over and over their new password: "material-formal; formal-material." Thanks
    to their grotesque errors, these efforts discredited them in the eyes of any learned, well-advised priest. Such erroneous teachings, forgivable to some extent for laymen, are
    completely inexcusable for priests, especially coming as they do from those pretending to be radar beacons of theology.
    SEDEVACANTISM AMERICAN-STYLE
    American sedevacantists have since come up with an interesting novelty which is a new rehash of the original Thesis of Cassissiacuм (see Sacerdotium, no.16). It is clear that
    sedevacantist propaganda often seems to carry some weigh by its gravity as well as its extensive research. The keenest among the sedevacantists do not base their thesis on the
    abovementioned theological fantasies. First of all, they seriously try to elucidate or to clear up that reality which should exist behind the distinction between "material pope"
    and "formal pope." For those unfamiliar with philosophy, it seems worthwhile to explain the meaning of such a distinction:
    A natural being is, in fact, composed of two essential co-principles: matter and form. In the same way, an accidental being (e.g., a football team, a community, a radio station) is
    understood by analogy as a whole made up of two co-principles which are like matter and form. But then we have a superimposition of quasi-substantial or of almost-
    substantial forms, and only the latter constitutes the compound being in its essence. For example, the rungs of a chair in kit form finally constitute or make up the chair only
    after having been placed each in its own stable position, which is an accident of relation. This accident acts as the "form" of the chair.
    In the present case, a pope is a man, that is, a bodily, created being, a man who has been baptized, a Catholic invested with an episcopal character, and finally, a bishop
    designated and recognized as the legitimate Pastor of the Church of Rome. The human being constitutes the quasi-matter for the superimposed supernatural accidental form:
    Baptism and supernatural life. A baptized male who has thus been elevated to a life of the supernatural order becomes the quasi-matter who receives the "quasi-form" of the
    sacrament of Orders, etc. To every ordinary bishop, however, there is still lacking a "form" to become pope, that is, the legitimate appointment, the recognition or
    acknowledgement of the Catholic faithful of his authority over the Church of Rome.
    In the previously mentioned thesis, what is meant by the expression material pope?
    Answer: It is a pope to whom would be lacking the ultimate "formality," meaning that ultimate accidental perfection which really and finally "activates" the papacy in a subject,
    that is, the man. It is through this "formality" that the pope-not-yet-pope becomes pope-in-fact-and-in-deed. All this being understood, the whole question resides in knowing
    for sure whether this superimposed accidental perfection actually exists outside the imagination of the sedevacantists.
    The aforementioned sedevacantists attempt to prove that there is still something lacking to the bishop who has legitimately been designated to occupy the Chair of Peter in
    Rome and who has so been acknowledged by the entire visible Church. It is obviously quite clear that Pope Paul VI as well as Pope John Paul II have indeed met these
    conditions. What is therefore lacking to them? To make a long story short, we simply and briefly give the American sedevacantists' conclusion, which is that the distinction
    between a material pope and a formal pope is the distinction between a legitimate pope without authority and a legitimate pope with full authority.
    But is it really possible in fact to separate legitimacy from authority? Can a ruler be simultaneously legitimate yet without authority? Would it not be better to say that a ruler
    loses his authority in the eyes of his subjects only after having lost his legitimacy and that one does not lose one without also losing the other? One needs only to consult the
    treatise De legibus [Regarding Laws] to be convinced that that which requires obedience on the part of a subject is that which has been ordered by those enjoying legitimate
    authority. In social philosophy, legitimacy and authority are inseparable. The distinction dreamed-up by the sedevacantists does not, in reality, exist at all.
    THE FUNDAMENTAL ERROR
    The American sedevacantists support their arguments by quoting some very good authors. But these good authors speak of something else. They speak of the authority of the
    law, and not of the authority of the one who rules. There is a difference. It is common knowledge that the ruler is not infallible and that his subjects are also endowed with free
    will. It can happen that an order contrary to reason or injurious to the common good might be given by the legitimate authority. If an individual comes to realize that the law is
    harmful, he must not obey; for it is not, in truth, a law, but a tyranny.
    In order to bolster their private judgment through the use of good authors, the sedevacantist propaganda jumps from the "intentio promulgendi errorem [intention of
    promulgating an error]" to the "intentio evertendae Ecclesiae per promulgationem erroris [intention of overthrowing the Church by promulgating an error]" (Sacerdotium,
    p.47).
    The latter entails or leads to the first, but not vice versa (i.e., not reciprocally). The intention of a ruler (i.e., any superior, the father of a family, an employer, a teacher) to
    promulgate or proclaim something objectively harmful to the common good is compatible with the intention of promoting the common good1 because it is possible that the
    subject can sincerely, but erroneously, believe that it is useful. How is it possible for subjects to prove with moral certainty that their ruler, in his heart of hearts (i.e., within
    himself), actually hopes and wishes to cause and bring evil upon his subjects and that it is on account of this evil will that he promulgates such evil laws? It is not possible. To
    prove this proposal is as impossible a task as proving a Pope's well-known public material heresy is actually formal heresy. Of course, errores et disciplinae nocivae non sunt
    leges [harmful errors and disciplinary regulations are not laws]! This only proves that a person invested with authority is mistaken. It does not at all prove that his authority no
    longer exists.
    How many acts contrary to the common good would it take on the part of the ruler in order for his subjects to infer that he does not wish, in a casehardened and habitual
    manner, the common good and has, therefore, become a tyrant? Five bad or evil laws? Ten bad laws? It is true, however, that such a frequent and recurring will on the part of
    the ruler to act against the common good gives rise to a legitimate suspicion which obliges us to closely examine those laws. Exactly in the same way, repeated teachings
    suspiciously smacking of heresy inevitably lead to suspicions of heresy. But, that's all - neither more nor less. All of which gives rise to doubts which tend to discredit the law
    but not the very existence of authority itself.
    One gets the feeling that the sedevacantists have indeed caught a glimpse of the problem. They usually make at least two attempts to get around this difficulty:
    Therefore, inasmuch as [authority] is a habit, it takes its species from its proper act and formal object. The primary and formal object, however, of the habit of
    authority is the making, promulgation and execution of laws. The formal object of law, however, is the promotion of the common good. It follows that he who
    enjoys authority must have the habitual intention of promoting the common good, as otherwise he cannot have authority (ibid., p.14).
    We reply in the negative to this objection. We cannot justifiably make a mental leap from the absence of obligation of a bad law to the absence of authority of the ruler
    promoting such a so-called "law." All of which simply means, in plain language, that he who rules and gives orders favoring evil at the expense of the public good, acts against
    nature and sins, nothing more.
    t is not sufficient that he who holds authority intends in his will the common good of the community, but rather the good which he intends must be the true and
    objective common good. The reason is that law is defined as an order of reason for the common good. Therefore in order that the will of a superior oblige in
    conscience, it is necessary that he objectively intend the common good [emphasis in original] (ibid., pp.14,15).
    If the sedevacantists were right in this case, he would prove too much! They would imply both constitutive infallibility as well as impeccability of all true authority!
    The first sophism can be found in the word authority. The author has illogically leapt from legitimacy before God (i.e., the ruler acts virtuously by ensuring the common good
    of his subjects through good laws) to the legitimacy before subjects (i.e., the order promulgated by the legitimate ruler must be obeyed). The ruler sins before God if he intends
    to harm society which he commands by his evil laws. But this does not mean that he has thereby lost his authority. An objectively bad law binds no one, yet subjects must, in
    conscience, obey as long as they truly believe them to be good, or even when they have doubts about it!2
    The second sophism consists in leaping from the authority of such a bad law to the authority of the ruler in general.
    The third sophism lies in the attempt to attribute such an absence of authority to the ruler, objectively provable the moment that it has been noted that a law is objectively bad.
    There is, of course, to be seen a moral correlation running throughout all of these elements, that is to say, the praiseworthy intention of the leader before God, a good law, the
    duty of conscientious obedience on the part of the subjects, together with the objective welfare or well-being of human society. But there is in no way a metaphysical link here
    at all. Here we see sedevacantists theorizing metaphysically in spite of the fact that they are dealing, in truth, with the physical political order.
    THE VERY SAME DEAD-END AS WITH THE DEMONSTRATION OF THE POPE'S
    HERESY
    A ruler's authority can be understood either in its relation to I) God, or 2) the society over which it is exercised.
    1) The ruler (i.e., the person invested with authority) as an individual subject, extends God's authority while
    constituting a channel through which courses the common good when he objectively desires that good through
    beneficial laws. The Latin word auctoritas takes its origin from the Latin root, auctor, meaning he who begets or
    generates, increases, or adds to. The right of commanding stems from the good generated. If the ruler enacts laws
    lacking the proportionate good or well-being of his subjects (despotism) or which cause damage or injury to the
    community (tyranny), he simply has no such right before God, and if he realizes his fault and is quite conscious of it,
    he is in the state of sin and has no authority to continue in such a manner.
    2) Does this automatically give his subjects the right of disobeying such a leader? No, not until they have positive
    proof or evidence of the evil(s) befalling their community.
    The subject's obedience is not due to the inner dispositions of the leader, but rather to the law, to the order coming
    publicly from legitimate authority, together with the necessary conditions required to make it a law in deed. The social
    relationship of subject and authority therefore remains, even in the case of the inner sinful dispositions of the ruler.
    THE FATAL FLAW
    We have now come to the flaw which warps the Thesis of Cassissiacuм: subjects do not owe obedience to the inner dispositions of their leader, but to the recognized social
    authority, legitimate in the social body. Social function is inseparable from legitimacy, while the conformity of the ruler's will to the will of God can be separated from the
    question of his legitimacy.
    American sedevacantists are able to explain this with remarkable precision without noticing, I suppose, that the entire "proof” of their theory has thus been struck and dashed to
    pieces:
    Every society is a moral person, and by analogy to a physical person, a society has its intellect and will. Therefore it is possible and it often happens that a fact is
    able to be true in the real order, and even most evident, but is not recognized as such by society. For example, someone is able to commit a murder, in front of
    many witnesses. Although the witnesses know that such a man is a murderer, nevertheless, before the law, he is held as innocent until he should be condemned by a
    court of law. In other words, in the eyes of society, he is not a murderer until he is convicted, even if it is absolutely certain to the witnesses that he is a murderer.
    Another example: in matrimony a spouse simulates [i.e., pretends - Ed.] consent. Before God and in reality, there is not a bond of matrimony in this case; but
    before the Church, the marriage is valid until it can be proven that the consent was simulated. If the priest should discover, by the confession of a spouse, that the
    consent was simulated, he must forbid the spouses the use of matrimony, because before God the bond does not exist, although before the Church the bond does
    exist until it shall be declared null by a legal declaration......Because of this distinction between a real fact and a legal fact, the Church - and every society - is
    distinguished from a mere mob (ibid., pp.49,50).
    These very precise and apt remarks are aimed at those intending to prove the deposition of the pope through Canon 188, §4 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law.
    American sedevacantists have done an excellent job on the canonical meaning of heretical notoriety (ibid., pp.62-65; 72-74). In the canonical sense, "notorious heresy" means
    heresy acknowledged by society, that is to say, a pertinacious heresy (i.e., persistent and determined to the point of stubbornness). One's own personal subjective convictions
    concerning the pope's writings have no social effects.
    This point must be made unmistakably clear: it means, for example, that a priest must celebrate Mass in union with the pope, no matter what intimate conviction that such a
    priest may entertain regarding the pope's "heresy" or "schism," since the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a private prayer, but an act of the Church's official public worship as
    such, and the pope remains pope as long as he be so acknowledged legitimacy. He remains pope before the public as long as he has not been proven pertinacious. This is why
    the priests of the Society of Saint Pius X include the name of the current pope when celebrating Holy Mass.
    A heretical pope remains pope as long as he is not pertinacious. Pertinacity is determined by the public acknowledgement of the heresy by the legitimate authority. Is this
    possible in the case of the pope who has no superior here on earth? - Maybe, as in the case of his rejection from the communion by the moral unanimity of the episcopacy. This
    is what occurred at the Council of Constance (1414-1418).
    In human society, legitimacy is inseparable from authority. The loss of the one in the social order entails the loss of the other. The sudden changes and reversals of fortune
    encountered, for instance, at the Council of Constance constitute a classic case. Things had reached a point where, in the eyes of all of the bishops, even in the view of his own
    personally-appointed cardinals, a pope's obstinacy in prolonging the Great Schism was incompatible with the will to promote the common good, and caused the loss of all
    legitimacy and thus all authority.3
    To lose social legitimacy means exactly the same things as to lose authority.
    We take our conclusion from the American sedevacantists themselves. As long as the Catholic episcopacy does nothing, there is no one capable of providing the certainty of
    conscience that the presently-reigning pope has been stripped of his authority:
    Our problem today - which is indeed horrendous - is that all the sees of authority, at least apparently, teach the errors of Vatican II as the magisterium [doubtlessly
    meaning here as belonging to the revealed Deposit of Faith - Ed.], and all electors of the pope4 participate in the errors of Vatican II, in such a way that there is no
    one who, in a legal way, is able to recognize or ascertain the fact of error in the magisterium, and therefore the absence of authority in those who promulgate it
    (ibid., p.51).
    THE REAL QUESTION
    Sedevacantists are truly obsessed by the question of the papacy. One may well wonder if in many of them this is not due to some psychological trauma. Their understandable
    ancestral veneration for the pope seems to unleash a veritable panic at the idea of contrasting their cherished, idealized image of the papacy with such popes as Paul VI and
    John Paul II.
    Sedevacantism appears to be more of a psychological than a theological problem. It would be both easy and cruel to evoke here some of the variations, as well as the successive
    divisions fostered by their numerous cliques and the astounding reversals and turnabouts coming from their inconsistent motives.
    But why be so harsh with them? Are not those reproaches, which they make regarding the Pope's teaching, his pastoral approach, including some erroneous Vatican II
    teachings, indeed well founded? Admittedly, some indulgence could be shown for some theological error which, for the moment, has but little practical consequences, if we
    were not to note and observe the dire consequences brought upon the faithful. We now see only too well what effects those theological outpourings produce in passionate
    Catholics. They now have become their own pope. They judge their own priests. No longer do many of them have recourse to the sacrament of Confession. No longer do they
    hearken to the Church's infallible teachings. They generally bring moral ruin on their own families. [These are the self-titled and self-styled "home-aloners."- Ed.]
    We used to know truly pious Catholics. After a few years we met them again only to find them marked by a psychological behavior found in types such as the Jehovah's
    Witnesses or in protestants in general: haughty, understanding everything, seeing everything through their jaundiced and obsessed eyes, unceasingly shaking their rattles of
    definitive, final, and unanswerable arguments which they do not understand themselves. Beware the time when they lose their God-given Faith and give up on everything.
    How can one explain such a breakdown in the Christian spirit? We may well wonder if sedevacantism may not prove to be even more grave, more serious than it first seemed.
    Experience has proved that that which is understood by most of those Catholics won over to the sedevacantist camp turns out to be quite a simple idea: an unworthy pope is no
    longer pope. This strangely resembles the unhinged teachings of Wycliffe and of John Hus: A pope in the state of mortal sin is no longer pope, a bishop in the state of mortal
    sin is no longer bishop having authority in his own diocese, nor does a pastor in such a state have any authority over his parish. And the same for a king over his country, etc.
    We may think that John Hus was sincere in his errors. His death does not seem to be one of a formal heretic. But this fact changes nothing with regard to the eventual ugly
    consequences. The followers of Jan Hus later became bloodthirsty wolves feeding on their exploited fellow citizens as they hunted to death those bishops, pastors, kings and
    princes whom they thought were not worthy of life.
    Rank speculation? A strange mixture of ideas? Do not be too sure. Let those who know of the appalling affair of the lnstitut Cardinal Pie think deeply about this: a half-crazed,
    self-appointed leader had applied the Cassissiacuм thesis to the French political system. He preached that those in power had no intention of working for the common well-
    being of their people, and therefore their power was only a sham, their places in government were vacant and required being taken over by right-thinking men. "I," said their
    leader, "know what is necessary for the welfare of France. This is my desire and intent and I therefore constitute the legitimate power of the country." And thus was founded a
    secret society levying taxes on its members, passing judgments by internal tribunals, and spying on its associates. Of course, such nonsense could not last and soon fell apart.
    But the sudden appearance and taking form of such a project and the seduction it was able to exert over intelligent men and women proves that the spirit of sedevacantism is
    indeed harmful to souls.
    Dionisius
    (Abridged and editied by Rev. Fr. Kenneth Novak)
    (Translated from Courrier de Rome, April, 1997)
    1. This is readily admitted by American sedevacantists without their fully realizing it: "The condition of accepting authority sine qua non is that he who receives it have the
    intention of promoting the common good of the community over which he rules" (Sacerdotium, no.16, p.54). Here it is a question of the subjective intention of promoting the
    common good, which means that the candidate can be mistaken. Otherwise we would be forced to acknowledge the personal infallibility (?!) of every candidate seeking public
    office or power.
    2. This holds as a general rule. We have seen above that many laws contrary to the common good give rise to legitimate suspicions. At such a moment, doubt can militate
    against the law.
    3. See Dictionnaire de théologie catholique, article "Constance"; and Le Concile de Constance au jour le jour [The Council of Constance Day by Day] by P. Glorieux, Descleé,
    1964.
    4. Here we take up and note one of the many errors of American sedevacantists: They maintain that legitimacy depends upon the regularity of the election as well as upon the
    orthodoxy of the voting cardinals. This is a false and legalistic idea of legitimacy. The enthronement ceremonies serve to clearly establish the leader's legitimacy, but do not
    constitute legitimacy itself. Some popes were installed by force, for example, by the empress of Constantinople or by factions of Roman nobility (9th and l0th centuries). They
    were true popes, however, because their Roman episcopacy was acknowledged and accepted by the faithful and the Catholic episcopate. The election of Pope Alexander VI
    Borgia, although tainted with simony, gives rise to no doubt as to his legitimacy even today. This legitimacy follows from the de facto acknowledgment of his authority by the
    Church. Indeed, this is a classic theological thesis.