Author Topic: Santo Subito claims that Popes Pius IX and Pius XII are heretics (Read 3017 times)

Daegus · « **on:** September 25, 2011, 05:26:35 PM »

Quote from: Daegus

I'll address the rest of Santo's post later, but I want to point something out that just proves that Santo Subito is a complete heretic:

Quote from: Santo Subito
Then Pius IX and Pius XII are heretics.

Source: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=16105&min=20&num=10

This man has just boldly claimed that 2 Popes are heretics without one shred of proof!

I can't believe this. He just claimed that Popes Pius IX and Pius XII are heretics. Isn't that ASTONISHING?

Just in case anyone still believes that this person isn't a complete deceiver. He's tried to say that I'm calling Popes Pius IX and XII heretics when he himself uttered the words.

This needs it own thread.

He basically tries to claim that Popes Pius IX and XII taught that belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation. He claims (on the same thread quoted) that these Popes taught that invincible ignorance can save, when they have never taught such a thing and (unsurprisingly) has provided no proof that they've said these things.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #1 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:33:22 PM »

YOU said that explicit beilef in the Trinity is necessary for salvation and those who deny it are heretics.

Pius XII and Pius IX say that the invincibly ignorant (who by definition have never even heard of the Trinity) can be saved.

Therefore you claim Pius IX and Pius XII are heretics.

Logic 101.

One day you will realize the way that the Church actually interprets EENS and it will all make sense. For those who have been exposed to the doctrine of the Trinity and are not mentally or morally impeded from believing in it, yes, they are culpable to believe in it. But stating that someone needs to explicitly believe in something to be saved that he has no way of knowing is completely assinine.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #2 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:34:32 PM »

The above post from Santo only shows what the kumbayah Vatican II and Bogus Ordo can do to you.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #3 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:37:07 PM »

Quote from: Daegus

He basically tries to claim that Popes Pius IX and XII taught that belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation. He claims (on the same thread quoted) that these Popes taught that invincible ignorance can save, when they have never taught such a thing and (unsurprisingly) has provided no proof that they've said these things.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9quanto.htm

Quote from: Pius IX

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

I'm ready to accept your apology whenever you are ready to give it.

Do you condemn Pius IX as a heretic for this statement? Yes or no?

Daegus · « **Reply #4 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:39:12 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

YOU said that explicit beilef in the Trinity is necessary for salvation and those who deny it are heretics.

Pius XII and Pius IX say that the invincibly ignorant (who by definition have never even heard of the Trinity) can be saved.

Therefore you claim Pius IX and Pius XII are heretics.

Logic 101.

One day you will realize the way that the Church actually interprets EENS and it will all make sense. For those who have been exposed to the doctrine of the Trinity and are not mentally or morally impeded from believing in it, yes, they are culpable to believe in it. But stating that someone needs to explicitly believe in something to be saved that he has no way of knowing is completely assinine.

I'm still waiting for you to provide a quote which proves that these Popes taught that belief in the Trinity isn't necessary for salvation.

On another note, I want you to pay attention and pay attention very carefully.

Pope Pius IX taught that those who are invincibly ignorant of the gospel CAN be saved, NOT that invincible ignorance can save you. He held that those who are invincibly ignorant, if they persevere in the natural law and are open to the Truth and would accept it upon knowing it, can be saved not BECAUSE OF their invincible ignorance.

Show me a quote where he, or Pius XII teaches that being invincibly ignorant can save. SHOW ME 1 QUOTE WHERE EITHER OF THEM TEACH THIS.

Daegus · « **Reply #5 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:40:18 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

Quote from: Daegus
He basically tries to claim that Popes Pius IX and XII taught that belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation. He claims (on the same thread quoted) that these Popes taught that invincible ignorance can save, when they have never taught such a thing and (unsurprisingly) has provided no proof that they've said these things.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9quanto.htm

Quote from: Pius IX
There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

I'm ready to accept your apology whenever you are ready to give it.

Do you condemn Pius IX as a heretic for this statement? Yes or no?

Pope Pius IX did not claim that invincible ignorance can save anyone, but that the invincibly ignorant can be saved. You're claiming that invincible ignorance can save people. This is completely wrong.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #6 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:43:34 PM »

Quote from: Daegus

Pope Pius IX taught that those who are invincibly ignorant of the gospel CAN be saved, NOT that invincible ignorance can save you. He held that those who are invincibly ignorant, if they persevere in the natural law and are open to the Truth and would accept it upon knowing it, can be saved not BECAUSE OF their invincible ignorance.

Show me a quote where he, or Pius XII teaches that being invincibly ignorant can save. SHOW ME 1 QUOTE WHERE EITHER OF THEM TEACH THIS.

Nice sleight of hand, but you aren't fooling anybody. I direcly quoted Pius IX clearly contradicting you, and then you completely change your tune after reading my quote and re-state what Pius IX said. You truly have no shame.

I never claimed that invincible ignorance itself saves a person! I always maintained that those who are invincibly ignorant CAN be saved. This is EXACTLY what Pius XII and Pius IX teach.

Furthermore, you still have not extricated yourself from your predicament. For now you admit Pius IX teaches the invincibly ignorant can be saved, but yet your logic still dictates that he is a heretic because he believes those who don't know of the Trinity can be saved. Good luck with that one! :wink:

trad123 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:50:00 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9quanto.htm

Quote from: Pius IX
There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Invincible or Inculpable Ignorance Neither Saves nor Damns a Person

http://www.cfnews.org/invig.htm

The Holy Office Letter on the Necessity of the Church

http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=324

Quote

Now most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation. It must be noted at this point that there is no hint of any intention on the part of the Holy Office, in citing this text from the Epistle to the Hebrews, to teach that explicit belief in the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and of the Incarnation is not required for the attainment of salvation. In the context of the letter, the Sacred Congregation quotes this verse precisely as a proof of its declaration that an implicit desire of the Church cannot produce its effect “unless a person has supernatural faith.”

Still, the teaching of the letter must be seen against the backdrop of the rest of Catholic doctrine. And it is definitely a part of the Catholic doctrine that certain basic revealed truths must be accepted and believed explicitly, even though other teachings contained in the deposit of faith may, under certain circuмstances, be believed with only an implicit faith. True and supernatural faith, we must remember, is not a mere readiness to believe, but an actual belief, but an actual belief, the actual acceptance as certainly true of definite teachings which have actually been revealed supernaturally by God to man.11 Furthermore, this salvific and supernatural faith is an acceptance of these teachings, not as naturally ascertainable doctrines, but precisely as revealed statements, which are to be accepted on the authority of God who has revealed them to man.

The second link is commentary on this docuмent, which you are familiar with:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdffeeny.htm

Santo Subito · « **Reply #8 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:53:12 PM »

Trad 123,

How can you say that explicit belief in the Trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation when Pius IX clearly teaches that someone ignorant of this dogma can be saved?

trad123 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 25, 2011, 05:56:13 PM »

§ 8. How Almighty God leads to salvation those who are inculpably ignorant of the truths of salvation.

http://romancatholicism.org/muller/section2.htm#a8

This is a link to a chapter from a book by Fr. Müller, The Catholic Dogma.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #10 on:** September 25, 2011, 06:03:25 PM »

This is similar to the Feeneyite notion that God Himself appears and water baptizes non-Catholics before they die to be saved. This is ridiculous becausae it binds the means which an omnipotent God can use to save who He wills.

trad123 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 25, 2011, 06:11:18 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

Trad 123,

How can you say that explicit belief in the Trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation when Pius IX clearly teaches that someone ignorant of this dogma can be saved?

Quote from: trad123

Invincible or Inculpable Ignorance Neither Saves nor Damns a Person

http://www.cfnews.org/invig.htm

Quote

Hence Pius IX said "that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, such invincible ignorance would not be sinful before God; that, if such a person should observe the precepts of the Natural Law and do the will of God to the best of his knowledge, God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten him so as to obtain eternal life; for, the Lord, who knows the heart and thoughts of man, will, in His infinite goodness, not suffer any one to be lost forever without his own fault."7

Pius IX teaches that God will not have them remain invincibly ignorant, one way or another they will be enlightened to the doctrines which are necessary for belief.

trad123 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 25, 2011, 06:21:36 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

This is similar to the Feeneyite notion that God Himself appears and water baptizes non-Catholics before they die to be saved. This is ridiculous becausae it binds the means which an omnipotent God can use to save who He wills.

Did you happen to scan the chapter I posted?

Quote from: trad123

http://romancatholicism.org/muller/section2.htm#a8

Quote from: excerpt

Many similar instances could be quoted to show that Almighty God, in his goodness, uses natural ways and means to place invincibly ignorant souls, that live up to their conscience, in the way of salvation. This is the ordinary way of his divine Providence, viz., to lead men, by natural ways and means, to what is supernatural.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #13 on:** September 25, 2011, 06:22:12 PM »

Quote from: trad123

Pius IX teaches that God will not have them remain invincibly ignorant, one way or another they will be enlightened to the doctrines which are necessary for belief.

Where does he say this and how could be possibly know?

So we must believe that an angel from Heaven comes down to each dying invincibly ignorant soul who followed his conscience during his life and gives a little Catechism lesson on the Trinity through some inner locution before he passes?

If you want to believe this, be my guest. God is omnipotent, so anything is possible. However, I fail to see how this absolutely must be believed as a matter of Faith. It strains credibility. It is like the Feenyite water baptisms fanatics who believe God will water baptize every invinciblly ignorant person to be saved before they die in some mysterious way. Same principle.

Caminus · « **Reply #14 on:** September 25, 2011, 07:01:09 PM »

It is the common teaching of theologians that explicit belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation wtih a necessity of means. This makes sense for I fail to see what kind of belief would imply such a doctrine.