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Author Topic: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism  (Read 150 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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  • So ... this piece of trash needs to be dissected.  I generally respect Bishop Sanborn, but this once again demonstrates that they have some dead spot in their brains regarding this matter.  Denial of EENS is in fact the core and fundamental error behind all the errors of Vatican II.  +Sanborn, and others, when asked about the chief heresy of Vatican II, always respond wth "the ecclesiology" ... but then are too blinded by this compartmentalization in their brain to see their own contraditions.  So I'm going to dedicate a thread to taking this thing apart, and I can do it little by little as I have time.

    https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Combined-Feeney-articles-red.pdf

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #1 on: Today at 08:40:18 AM »
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  • +Sanborn:
    Quote
    5. Is baptism absolutely necessary?

    Baptism is not absolutely necessary ...

    Catechism "of Pope St. Pius X" ...
    Quote
    Q1: Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A1: Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.’



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 08:51:16 AM »
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  • So, the Cushingites promote various sources like the Catechism "of St. Pius X" as practically being infallible rules of faith for doctrine, and so we have here Bishop Sanborn directly and verbatim contradicting one of these sources.  Now, the notion of this "Catechsim of St. Pius X" is rather slippery, since, while St. Pius X did publish a smaller catechism before he became Pope, the one issued under his name later, and then modified / edited dozens of times over the years, while continuing to bear his name ... the Cushingites enjoy calling it that because they implicitly add to their positon a subtle "argument from authority", where, ah, if it has the name of St. Pius X associated with it, then it might as well be the saint himself speaking, and solemnly defining it as dogma.

    In an article written for The Angelus, Father Duverger says the following about that Catechism.
    Quote
    [St. Pius X] published the Compendium of Christian Doctrine and ordered it to be used in the diocese and province of Rome. It is a remake of a compendium published in 1756 for the diocese of Piedmont. Pius X hoped that this catechism would at least be spread throughout Italy. It is also commonly called the Catechism of St. Pius X, though this is something of a misnomer.

    https://isidore.co/misc/Res%20pro%20Deo/Pope%20St.%20Pius%20X%20&%E2%81%84or%20SSPX/The%20Angelus/PDFs/425_Angelus%20May-June%202014%20LR.pdf

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 08:57:08 AM »
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  • Theologians do hold that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely (not relatively) necessary by necessity of means for salvation.

    What's interesting here, with Bishop Sanborn's mischaracterization is that ... in a way he's actually right, and these other sources are wrong.  How so?  Bishop Sanborn recognizes the fact that by definition something is not and cannot be ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation if in fact the same ends (namely, salvation) can be achieved by alternative means.  That's a direct contradictoin of what ABSOLUTE necessity means.

    Now, while all these other sources go on to contradict themselves, due to this strange mental block regarding this subject, at least Bishop Sanborn recognizes the absurdity of claiming absolute necessity of means ... and then immediately going on to list alternative means.

    +Sanborn:
    Quote
    5. Is baptism absolutely necessary?

    Baptism is not absolutely necessary, since it may be supplied by two means: perfect love of God and martyrdom.

    So, while he contradicts all the theological sources, which do list Baptism as absolutely necessary by necessity of means for salvation, he actually draws attention to the fact that these sources contradict themselves by implicitly admitting the absurdity of listing it as absolutely necessary and then immediately admitting of exceptions or alternative means by which the same end may be achieved.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 09:17:01 AM »
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  • Very early in this Catechism, Bishop Sanborn gets very sloppy and quickly slides into heresy ... as most Cushingites inevitably do (I've run into only one or two that articulated BoD in a way that does not entail heresy by contradicting dogmatic teaching).

    While in his opening paragraph he speaks of "baptism of water" ... by which he undoubtedly means Baptism in re, i.e. received by means of water in the actual reception of the Sacrament, the Sacrament of Baptism is by definition "of water", in the entirety of this so-called "Catechism", he simply uses the term "Baptism"  So, to say that Baptism and the Sacrament of Baptism are not necessary for salvation ... is in fact a heretical rejection of the dogmatic teaching of Trent.  I'll come back to that momentarily, but you can see in the first question of his Catechism that he even capitalizes "Baptism" (by which we presume that he's referring to the Sacrament proper, which is generally capitalized), but then almost immediately switches to using lowercase, "baptism", where he subtly transmogrifies the discussion into a looser sense of the word, a broader "baptism" beyond the Sacrament itself.

    Now, it's heretical to claim that one can be saved without the Sacrament or that the Sacrament is not necessary for salvation ... since it's a direct denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  EVEN IF you hold that there are alternative modes for receiving the Sacrament, you cannot say that salvation can be achieved WITHOUT the Sacrament or that the Sacrament is not NECESSARY.  Even if you believe in BoD, you must hold that the Sacrament of Baptism remains the instrumental cause of justification (and, some believe, of salvation), as Trent teaches.

    This is precisely what St. Robert Bellarmine, writing after Trent, avoided saying that anyone could be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism ... but instead insisted upon the formula that one could receive the Sarament in voto, so it's not that you didn't receive the Sacrament, or were saved without it, but that you received it in an alternate manner, in voto, vs. in re.

    But as time went on the anti-EENS forces, and the Cushingites, adopted this language that the Sacrament of Baptism was NOT necessary for salvation and that people could be saved WITHOUT it.  That's where they slide from an acceptable Catholic articulation of BoD into heresy.

    So, if the effects of the Sacrament can be supplied by "perfect love of God and martyrdom", as +Sanborn and others claim, then HOW DOES IT REMAIN NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AS TRENT TEACHES?  Does it magically / mystically / invisibly operate in these cases?  Do such people receve "Anonymous Baptism"?

    No, in their model, there's no real way in which the Sacrament remains necessary for salvation, not absolutely or even relatively ... not as a necessity of means, but only as a necessity of precept, rendering it optional if you don't even know about it.

    But the Cushingites realize they must pay lip service to the fact that Baptism is necessary by necessity of means, since that's constant Catholic teaching ... even though in reality they deny it.

    I challenge Cushingites to explain in what sense the Sacrament of Baptism actually, in real terms, ontologically ... remains necessary by necessity of means for salvation if anyone can be saved without it and without even knowing about it?


    Online Everlast22

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 09:33:29 AM »
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  • To me, the modernist (including many trads) attitude towards EENS is that the Catholic Church is just the "preferred" way, not THE ONLY way. :facepalm::facepalm:

    This is not Catholic. Remember God's providence is above all. What He wills, happens.






    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 09:41:50 AM »
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  • SHIFT FROM NECESSITY OF MEANS TO NECESSITY OF PRECEPT

    +Sanborn:
    Quote
    4. What is meant by saying that for adults baptism is necessary both as a means and as being of precept?

    By this is meant not only that adults are not saved if they die without baptism, but that they are damned if they refuse to receive this sacrament when they know its necessity.

    So, +Sanborn says earlier, correectly, that Baptism is necessary by necessity of means for salvation for infants, but not of precept, where he then says that infants are not saved without it (means) but do not commit a sin for not receiving it (precept).  Since they cannot sin without having the use of reason, this is correct.

    But then he says that for adults Baptism is necessary both by means and by precept.  That's also correct.

    EXCEPT ... that he's clearly shuffling over to making Baptism necessary by necessity of precept ONLY, where you're only damned (aka not saved) if you know the necessity of Baptism and refuse to receive it.  Well, if it's also necessity of means where you can't be saved without it, period, like infants ... then are you damned LESS somehow if you don't receive it in ignorance?  If, however, you're SAVED if you don't receive it only because you're in invincible ignorance ... then HOW IS IT STILL NECESSARY BY NECESSITY OF MEANS?  Answer:  it's not.

    So despite paying lip service to the formula, since it's what the Church has always taught, here he actually shifts over to making it so that ...

    for infants, baptism is necessary by necessity of means
    for adults, baptism if necessary by necessity of precept

    There's no getting around this.  Just because he SAYS it's both, paying lip service to the formula, doesn't mean he actually thinks it's both or believes it to be both.  If it WERE both, it doesn't matter WHY an adult didn't receive the Sarament. He would in fact not be punished for the actual sin of refusing Baptism, but he still can't be saved without the Sacrament if it's necessary by necessity of means.

    Online Everlast22

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 09:43:09 AM »
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  • SHIFT FROM NECESSITY OF MEANS TO NECESSITY OF PRECEPT

    +Sanborn:
    So, +Sanborn says earlier, correectly, that Baptism is necessary by necessity of means for salvation for infants, but not of precept, where he then says that infants are not saved without it (means) but do not commit a sin for not receiving it (precept).  Since they cannot sin without having the use of reason, this is correct.

    But then he says that for adults Baptism is necessary both by means and by precept.  That's also correct.

    EXCEPT ... that he's clearly shuffling over to making Baptism necessary by necessity of precept ONLY, where you're only damned (aka not saved) if you know the necessity of Baptism and refuse to receive it.  Well, if it's also necessity of means where you can't be saved without it, period, like infants ... then are you damned LESS somehow if you don't receive it in ignorance?  If, however, you're SAVED if you don't receive it only because you're in invincible ignorance ... then HOW IS IT STILL NECESSARY BY NECESSITY OF MEANS?  Answer:  it's not.

    So despite paying lip service to the formula, since it's what the Church has always taught, here he actually shifts over to making it so that ...

    for infants, baptism is necessary by necessity of means
    for adults, baptism if necessary by necessity of precept

    There's no getting around this.  Just because he SAYS it's both, paying lip service to the formula, doesn't mean he actually thinks it's both or believes it to be both.  If it WERE both, it doesn't matter WHY an adult didn't receive the Sarament. He would in fact not be punished for the actual sin of refusing Baptism, but he still can't be saved without the Sacrament if it's necessary by necessity of means.
    Sanborn is just doing his political best to not be labeled a "you know who".


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 09:44:40 AM »
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  • Trent also condemns the idea that an unbaptized person can have 'perfect love of God' because this act of love requires the supernatural virtue of charity, which you ONLY get AFTER baptism.  

    Same idea with the necessity of supernatural Faith, being required for salvation.  You only get this AFTER baptism.  An unbaptized person does not, and cannot, have supernatural Faith.  You cannot WISH for supernatural Faith.  You cannot WILL to have it.  It only comes from God, through the Church, through Baptism.

    Both of these examples are just protestantism repackaged into a catholic version of 'sola fide'.

    Baptism of desire is basically 'baptism by faith' or 'baptism by love'.  It's heresy either way.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 09:45:45 AM »
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  • To me, the modernist (including many trads) attitude towards EENS is that the Catholic Church is just the "preferred" way, not THE ONLY way. :facepalm::facepalm:

    This is not Catholic. Remember God's providence is above all. What He wills, happens.

    That's precisely it, and the EWTN Wojtylan Modernists will say it exactly in those words.  But the anti-Feeneyite Trad zealots actually believe the SAME THING, except they realize on the surface that this formulation is not Catholic, but heretical.  So they engage in these contortions where they maintain lip service to the formula but then deny its actual substance, contradicting themselves.

    As I point out above.  +Sanborn says that Baptism is necessary by means AND precept for adults.  That formula is in fact correct.  But what he does subtly with that is ... what he really means is that it's only necessary by precept for adults.  If it were ALSO means, then it does not matter WHY they did not receive the Sacrament.  If they did not receive it because they knowingly refused it, then certainly they commit actual sin and are punished for this.  That's the only implication of the "and of precept" part.  But what he says with the formula is not what he actually means.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 09:48:02 AM »
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  • Trent also condemns the idea that an unbaptized person can have 'perfect love of God' because this act of love requires the supernatural virtue of charity, which you ONLY get AFTER baptism. 

    Same idea with the necessity of supernatural Faith, being required for salvation.  You only get this AFTER baptism.  An unbaptized person does not, and cannot, have supernatural Faith.  You cannot WISH for supernatural Faith.  You cannot WILL to have it.  It only comes from God, through the Church, through Baptism.

    Both of these examples are just protestantism repackaged into a catholic version of 'sola fide'.

    Baptism of desire is basically 'baptism by faith' or 'baptism by love'.  It's heresy either way.

    Yep, there are myriad contradictions in the land of "BoD Theory" to Catholic doctrine ... but these folks have blinders on, for various reasons.  God will judge their internal forum.

    I know that the SVs are the most militant because, in their batttles against R&R, they have so badly exaggerated papal infallibility that a docuмent like Suprema Fake might as well be a solemn dogmatic definition similar to that regarding the Assumption.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #11 on: Today at 09:50:51 AM »
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  • SVs also contradict themsleves in this way.

    They say that manifest heretics lose office, but then attack Father Feeney for disobedience.  Well, if anyone was a manifest heretic, it was +Cushing ... "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense."  That's one of myriad heretical statements that Cushing made.  So, by their own standards, +Cushing was a non-bishop and so Father Feeney was not being disobedienct to him.  Similarly, Father Feeney's Jesuit superior was also a manifest heretic, and therefore also deposed from being his superior (Dimond Brothers cite numerous heresies from that superior in their writeup).

    Which is it, SVs?  Does manifest heresy depose or doesn't it?  Calling EENS "Nonsense", i.e. directly contradicting defined dogma is about as manifest as you get.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #12 on: Today at 09:56:54 AM »
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  • for infants, baptism is necessary by necessity of means
    for adults, baptism if necessary by necessity of precept
    Yeah, the contradiction is appalling.  He has to say that infants/means are connected because of Pelagianism and the direct words of the Church saying thus.

    But he can say adults/precept (in his mind) because the Church has said similar things and hasn't directly condemned it, same as Pelagianism.

    Online Angelus

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    Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
    « Reply #13 on: Today at 10:08:13 AM »
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  • SVs also contradict themsleves in this way.

    They say that manifest heretics lose office, but then attack Father Feeney for disobedience.  Well, if anyone was a manifest heretic, it was +Cushing ... "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense."  That's one of myriad heretical statements that Cushing made.  So, by their own standards, +Cushing was a non-bishop and so Father Feeney was not being disobedienct to him.  Similarly, Father Feeney's Jesuit superior was also a manifest heretic, and therefore also deposed from being his superior (Dimond Brothers cite numerous heresies from that superior in their writeup).

    Which is it, SVs?  Does manifest heresy depose or doesn't it?  Calling EENS "Nonsense", i.e. directly contradicting defined dogma is about as manifest as you get.

    The doctrinal part letter was from the Holy Office with Pius XII's signature. Cushing did not write the doctrinal synopsis himself. So whether he was a heretic or not is irrelevant.

    Let it be known that every "trad" bishop is a heretic according to the Council of Feeneyite Elders on Cathinfo:

    The Holy Office of Pius XII, anathema!
    Bishops of the RCI, anathema!
    Bishops of the CMRI, anathema!
    Bishops of the SSPV, anathema!
    Bishops of the SSPX Resistance, anathema!
    Bishops of the SSPX, anathema!
    Etc.

    You guys are such a joke.