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Author Topic: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism  (Read 90409 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2025, 01:18:47 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on December 15, 2025, 12:07:38 PM
Are you an idiot where you cannot read?  That's what I said almost verbatim.

They are heretical on this point.  Now, this does not mean they are pertinacious heretics.  Some are, some are not.  I have no way of sorting that out.  You have clearly demonstrated that you are, so that you're not a Catholic but a manifest heretic who's outside the Church.

So, most of the Trad bishops are "heretics," according to you.

You do realize that, in Sanborn's text, the argument of the Holy Office of Pius XII was a mere secondary confirmation to the position expressed by Pius IX.

Here is what Bishop Sanborn wrote:

https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Combined-Feeney-articles-red.pdf

------------------------
INSTALLMENT NO. 2

TEACHINGS OF POPE PIUS IX AND OF THE HOLY OFFICE UUNDER POPE PIUS XII


I. TEACHING OF HIS HOLINESS POPE PIUS IX, IN THE ALLOCUTION SINGULARI QUADAM OF DECEMBER 9TH, 1854


For it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things?


II. TEACHING OF THE HOLY OFFICE UNDER POPE PIUS XII ...

--------------------------------

Do you admit that the teaching of Singulari Quadam was a part of Pius IX's Ordinary Magisterium? If so, are you calling Sanborn and "most of the trad bishops" heretics for using Pius IX's doctrine as the primary basis for their rejection of Feeneyism?

If not, please clarify.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2025, 01:35:38 PM »
Quote from: Angelus on December 15, 2025, 01:18:47 PM
but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God.
Can you explain exactly what this ^^ means? I sure can't. 

He is saying it is certain  - what is certain? To labor in invincible ignorance of the true religion means no guilt of sin?

This is entirely ambiguous if not nonsensical because to labor at something means one at least has some idea or knows something about the thing they're working on, which is impossible for one whose ignorance is invincible.   
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Offline Angelus

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Re: +Sanborn's Anti-EENS (aka "Anti-Feeneyite") "Catechism
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2025, 02:16:19 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on December 15, 2025, 01:35:38 PM
Can you explain exactly what this ^^ means? I sure can't.

He is saying it is certain  - what is certain? To labor in invincible ignorance of the true religion means no guilt of sin?

This is entirely ambiguous if not nonsensical because to labor at something means one at least has some idea or knows something about the thing they're working on, which is impossible for one whose ignorance is invincible. 

It needs to be read in the context of the entire sentence. Why would you think removing two other independent clauses from the sentence would render it clear?

Here us the entire sentence by Pius IX:

"For it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."

So Pius IX is saying in the first independent clause that terse doctrine of EENS that everyone on Cathinfo likes to quote. Then, in the second independent clause, he restates the same terse doctrine using the language of Biblical allegory. Then, in the third independent clause of the same sentence, he qualifies what he said in the first two clauses by teaching the doctrine of invincible ignorance. This final qualification creates a category of people that the doctrine of EENS does not apply to.

And if you will read again the three quotes from Pius IX on this matter, you will see that he provides more detail and context in other quotes. But he is saying essentially the same thing in all three quotes:

Here are all three quotes from Pius IX again:

Singulari Quadam

"Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."


Singulari Quidem

"The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."


Quanto Conficiamur Moerore

"Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”




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