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Author Topic: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross  (Read 1918 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
« on: August 22, 2018, 07:56:32 PM »
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  • I love this picture and its unique perspective and have a large print of it in my home, but for the past few months, it has bothered me that there are no wounds ( or nails) in Jesus' hands and feet, no INRI or anything written on the posting above His head and no Crown of Thorns. I know this is an artist's representation and Dali was a surrealist, but I wouldn't want to dishonor Our Lord's image in any way. 
    Also , I have seen Dali's photo when he was in attendance at one of those "eyes wide shut" Illuminati parties in the '70's. I know Caravaggio was a criminal and possibly a murderer but I consider him the greatest artist of all in his depictions of the life of Christ -so I am conflicted.
    Should I get rid of this print or am I being too scrupulous?


    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #1 on: August 22, 2018, 08:46:10 PM »
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  • I love this picture and its unique perspective and have a large print of it in my home, but for the past few months, it has bothered me that there are no wounds ( or nails) in Jesus' hands and feet, no INRI or anything written on the posting above His head and no Crown of Thorns. I know this is an artist's representation and Dali was a surrealist, but I wouldn't want to dishonor Our Lord's image in any way.
    Also , I have seen Dali's photo when he was in attendance at one of those "eyes wide shut" Illuminati parties in the '70's. I know Caravaggio was a criminal and possibly a murderer but I consider him the greatest artist of all in his depictions of the life of Christ -so I am conflicted.
    Should I get rid of this print or am I being too scrupulous?
    I wouldn't put it in your home sanctuary or altar, or pray over it.  But I wouldn't throw it out, keep it in a bedroom or hallway.  I like Dali even though I hate modern art. I would consider surrealism to be modern art, but Dali most likely from his Catholic culture seems to have a certain element that is decent (in most paintings, some are trash).  


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #2 on: August 22, 2018, 08:52:10 PM »
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  • Like Picasso, he was talented enough to produce excellent art, but rarely did.

    He is most known for appealing to college potheads.

    For me, I could care less about his good art, since his reputation and bad art color my judgment of it:

    Since true art is the external manifestation of an internal vision of reality, I deliberately NEVER separate the art from the artist as most critics would; I believe doing so cripples, rather than enhances, a deeper understanding and insights into the end product: Incorporate the whole man into your appraisal, and you will hit closer to the mark of what the artist intended.

    Kind of like reading the notorious sodomite Oscar Wilde (whom the SSPX had the bad sense to have their school kids perform one of his plays), whom later converted:

    I don't really care that he converted (except from the perspective of supernatural charity):

    He said "The only way to fight temptation is to give in to it" (and many other scandalous things).

    They put that quote on a cheese here that appeals to the fαɢs here in the grocery stores.

    Long story short (and a message to the SSPX woven in):

    There is so much other good, Catholic art out there, that it is not necessary to try sifting pearls from the dung-heap (and it makes me wonder why there are so many attempts to do it).

    The painting you posted by Dali, in and of itself, is just "ok."  

    I doubt he had any theological intentions by omitting the nails, but who knows.

    Nevertheless, I would never hang his work in my house (just like I would never have an Oscar Wilde book on my shelves).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 09:06:00 PM »
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  • ...it has bothered me that there are no wounds (or nails) in Jesus' hands and feet, no INRI or anything written on the posting above His head and no Crown of Thorns.

    Should I get rid of this print or am I being too scrupulous?
    .
    You can very easily add nails, blood, crown of thorns, INRI, and some scourging scars, all of which are missing.
    (BTW it's not overly scrupulous to realize that without the INRI and the nails and the crown of thorns, it's not a crucifix.)
    .
    But that's not going to resolve the basic problem with this work.
    .
    It is made with the deliberate intention of making it appear that 
    the Corpus hangs down vertically from a cross which is horizontal.
    .
    IOW it is a distortion of the truth, and it evokes an inappropriate appetite in the viewer - to be overly imaginative regarding this.
    .
    There is already far too much incomprehensibility for us regarding the REAL Crucifixion, we don't need whacko distortions.
    .
    Pick up a copy of St. John of the Cross's works on the Crucifixion of Our Lord, but I have to warn you:
    .
    I know people who have been so entirely consumed by his writings they find they can hardly think of anything else.
    .
    But one thing is for sure: I've never met one who admires St. John's works who also admires this picture you have on the wall.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 09:09:51 PM »
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  • .
    You can very easily add nails, blood, crown of thorns, INRI, and some scourging scars, all of which are missing.
    .
    But that's not going to resolve the basic problem with this work.
    .
    It is made with the deliberate intention of making it appear that the Corpus hangs down vertically from a cross which is horizontal.
    .
    IOW it is a distortion of the truth, and it evokes an inappropriate appetite in the viewer - to be overly imaginative regarding this.
    .
    There is already far too much incomprehensibility for us regarding the REAL Crucifixion, we don't need whacko distortions.
    .
    Pick up a copy of St. John of the Cross's works on the Crucifixion of Our Lord, but I have to warn you:
    .
    I know people who have been so entirely consumed by his writings they find they can hardly think of anything else.
    .
    But one thing is for sure: I've never met one who admires St. John's works who also admires this picture you have on the wall.

    Hmm...

    Well, I have to say that is an interesting insight.

    Never thought about the vertical/horizontal thing before.

    But strangely, now I can't shake it.

    Kudos.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 09:10:33 PM »
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  • It looks like the cross has a kink.

    I would burn it.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 09:19:23 PM »
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  • .
    I can't vouch for the popularity of this work specifically, but from my own personal experience, the works of Dali in particular and images that twist traditional themes in this manner and other manners are very attractive to ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. They have a disordered attraction to everything queer or strange or perverted, in any way whatsoever. If it's bizarre, they have a hankering for it.
    .
    So I would be very slow to form any attachment to this particular image. I'm not saying it's indecent or obviously evil or in bad taste. All I'm saying is it takes a very important subject that has innumerable excellent examples of fine art depicting it, and tries to "break the mold" as it were by presenting a whole new perspective.
    .
    Not that it's necessarily a bad thing to take a new approach to something, but you have to consider all the aspects.
    .
    Maybe I'm not doing a good job with this. But I would suggest you take this picture to your priest and ask him what to do. Best yet, take it to your confessor. That would be the best way of answering the problem of what to do with it.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #7 on: August 22, 2018, 09:37:04 PM »
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  • .
    I have an example that might seem to be off-topic, but I don't think it is.
    I knew a boy who took an art class at a Catholic high school in the early 70's.
    It was a school run by the Salesians of Don Bosco.
    There was an assignment to make a casting of some design in concrete to make a stepping stone, effectively.
    No specifications were given except the physical dimensions, it was something like 15 inches square by 4 thick.
    So this one boy, who was slightly light in the loafers so to speak, came up with this design that had half the face of 

    David Bowie                                      
    on the top, kind of facing downward                                  
    not unlike this Dali crucifixion image does                                 
    but with the key feature of a single tear under one eye, falling                               
    Kind of like this:                                    

                                    
    .
    Salesian brothers ran the class.
    The boy watched them for their reaction when he turned in the project.
    Later, I heard him describe with pride how the brothers' look at "that tear" was worth a million bucks.
    .
    The point is, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs get a big thrill out of shocking people with their oddities.


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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #8 on: August 22, 2018, 09:39:39 PM »
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  • Maybe I'm not doing a good job with this. But I would suggest you take this picture to your priest and ask him what to do. Best yet, take it to your confessor. That would be the best way of answering the problem of what to do with it.

    There were times when priests were sent by bishops which were authorized via apostolic succession by our Lord. Today (given what SSPX Bernard Tissier de Mallerais states) I myself authorize the priest or the bishop. Well then, if I am the one authorizing the priest or bishop, then I am superior and my own decision about what to do with the picture is preferable.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #9 on: August 22, 2018, 09:48:52 PM »
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  • .
    I have an example that might seem to be off-topic, but I don't think it is.
    I knew a boy who took an art class at a Catholic high school in the early 70's.
    It was a school run by the Salesians of Don Bosco.
    There was an assignment to make a casting of some design in concrete to make a stepping stone, effectively.
    No specifications were given except the physical dimensions, it was something like 15 inches square by 4 thick.
    So this one boy, who was slightly light in the loafers so to speak, came up with this design that had half the face of

    David Bowie                                      
    on the top, kind of facing downward                                  
    not unlike this Dali crucifixion image does                                
    but with the key feature of a single tear under one eye, falling                              
    Kind of like this:                                    

                                   
    .
    Salesian brothers ran the class.
    The boy watched them for their reaction when he turned in the project.
    Later, I heard him describe with pride how the brothers' look at "that tear" was worth a million bucks.
    .
    The point is, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs get a big thrill out of shocking people with their oddities.

    The teardrop thing is interesting; I found this:

    7. Teardrop

    One of the most common criminal tattoos is the teardrop underneath the eye, think Lil Wayne.
    The most widely accepted meaning of the teardrop is the wearer has killed someone. The teardrop can also mean that the wearer is mourning the loss of a family member. A clear teardrop, like the one pictured, can mean that the wearer has committed an attempted murder, or alternatively, that a close friend or family member was killed and the wearer is seeking revenge.


    Read more: http://www.realclear.com/offbeat/2014/07/24/7_most_notorious_prison_tattoos_what_they_mean_8023.html#ixzz5OxvgmN6Y



    and this:

    "The teardrop tattoo or tear tattoo is a symbolic tattoo of a tear that is placed underneath the eye. The teardrop is one of the most widely recognised prison tattoos[1] and has various meanings.
    It can signify that the wearer has spent time in prison;[2] or more specifically that the wearer was raped while incarcerated and tattooed by the rapist as a "property" mark and for humiliation, since facial tattoos cannot be concealed.[3][4]
    It can acknowledge the loss of a family or fellow gang member;[5] the tattoo is sometimes worn by the female companions of prisoners in solidarity with their loved ones.[6] Amy Winehouse had a teardrop tattooed to mark her distress at husband Blake Fielder-Civil remaining on remand at Pentonville Prison.[7] US rappers The Game and Lil Wayne have teardrop tattoos signifying the death of friends,[8][7] and basketball player Amar'e Stoudemire has had a teardrop tattoo since 2012 honoring his older brother Hazell Jr., who died in a car accident.[9]
    In some cases, it may signify that the wearer has killed someone.[10] Sometimes the exact meaning of the tattoo is only known by the wearer.[5][11] The tattoo's meaning also can change depending on whether the tear is empty or is filled with ink.[10]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teardrop_tattoo 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #10 on: August 22, 2018, 09:50:37 PM »
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  • .
    It is made with the deliberate intention of making it appear that
    the Corpus hangs down vertically from a cross which is horizontal.

    I don't know if you can explain this statement in another way , but I don't get it. Isn't the Corpus supposed to be hanging vertically from the horizontal cross beam? Isn't that correct?
    I'm obviously not seeing what you are, but I'd like to understand.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #11 on: August 22, 2018, 11:38:57 PM »
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  • I don't know if it is just me, but I sense something repulsive about it.

    I think it is ugly and do not like it.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #12 on: August 22, 2018, 11:43:58 PM »
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  • Since true art is the external manifestation of an internal vision of reality, I deliberately NEVER separate the art from the artist as most critics would; I believe doing so cripples, rather than enhances, a deeper understanding and insights into the end product: Incorporate the whole man into your appraisal, and you will hit closer to the mark of what the artist intended.

    I agree. This is a very good point.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #13 on: August 22, 2018, 11:55:34 PM »
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  • I don't know if you can explain this statement in another way , but I don't get it. Isn't the Corpus supposed to be hanging vertically from the horizontal cross beam? Isn't that correct?
    I'm obviously not seeing what you are, but I'd like to understand.
    .
    I didn't want to duplicate the OP's image again since it's already seen twice on this first page.
    But since you're the author, you're the one with this picture hanging in your home.
    So you ought to know what it looks like.
    Do you mean to say that in all the times you've seen it you didn't realize it was facing downward?
    .
    The crossbeam of a crucifix is always horizontal (unless some modern wise guy shows it otherwise).
    But the Dali image has the front face of the crossbeam facing downwards.
    As in down -- down to earth? Terrestrial (maybe Jesus was not terrestrial)? Toward the underworld?
    .
    It's just weird.
    What would you think if the priest during Benediction bent over to face the floor with the monstrance?
    Do you understand yet?
    .
    There is a known fact in post-Dali sculpture (if you could call it that) where the crucifix (as it were) faced downward.
    It was used at a big outdoor "mass" with JPII at the helm, in Italy.
    Then the cross (wasn't really a crucifix, had no INRI) was moved to a public park.
    Some years later, while a large group of children gathered under it, it fell down.
    One disabled man wasn't quick enough to run away so he got crushed to death.
    .
    Maybe you remember the story?
    .
    April 24th, 2014, 9 years after JPII died, a huge cross erected in a public park bearing the name of JPII, fell down killing a man.
    Perhaps this should tell the world that God doesn't approve of crosses facing the ground, or of the so-called canonization of JPII?

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/24/john-paul-ii-crucifix-kills-man_n_5206712.html

    Just two days before the canonization of Pope John Paul II, a giant crucifix erected in his honor collapsed in Italy, crushing a young man and killing him, according to ANSA.



    The 30-meter (98-foot) high wooden crucifix [cross] fell down during an event near the village of Cevo, in northern Italy, instantly killing the 21-year-old man, Marco Gusmini. The Jesus Christ figure attached to the cross is six meters high [if it were positioned upright, but it was lying face down so that it was only about 3 meters tall -- but after it fell, it was just two meters tall] and weighs 600 kg, according to AFP.

    Witnesses reported that the victim was part of a visiting group of young Catholics, and another person was hospitalized for minor injuries after the cross fell.

    The curved crucifix [cross] was designed by sculptor Enrico Job in honor of John Paul II’s visit to Brescia in northern Italy’s Lombardy region in 1998 [see pic at bottom]. It was installed in a scenic location near Cevo in 2005. The unusual curve of the crucifix [cross] was intended to evoke the scars of WWII, according to AFP.    [The "scars of WWII?" How does that work? Some scars are not curved.]

    The cross before it fell looked pretty bad too:


    You know the Italian engineers were worried about it falling down because you can see the bracing cables behind it.

    The wood curving base of the cross broke right in the middle of the curve on the left side, right where erosion by rain and sunshine would be the worst and the stress from the 600 Kg corpus plus all that heavy wood certainly should have been a danger sign.

    Even before it was in this park, in its first installation it was a cross facing downward:


    .
    The above image comes from a "Chiesa viva" site (Fr. Luigi Villa) with the headline:
    .
    The Diabolical Secret of the Crucifix of Cevo



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Salvatore Dali- Christ of St John of the Cross
    « Reply #14 on: August 23, 2018, 12:21:23 AM »
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  • .

    Marco Gusmini, age 21, man killed instantly by JPII cross.
    .

    .
                                    "The Collapse of the Cross of Job"
    .
    https://www.ilgiorno.it/brescia/cronaca/crollo-croce-cevo-1.3735890
    .
    Brescia, 20 February 2018 - "With regular checks we could have realized how the building was getting worse". To underline the consultants of the Brescia prosecutor during the new hearing of the trial for the death of Marco Gusmini, the 21 year old of Lovere was killed on April 24, 2014 in Cevo by the collapse of the cross of Job, the crucifix built in 1998 for the visit of Pope John Paul II and placed in 2005 on the Dosso where the tragedy occurred. For the death of Gusmini in the last months at the end of the trial celebrated with the abbreviated procedure, he was sentenced to one year of imprisonment. Ivan Scolari, technician of the Municipality of Cevo. Silvio Citroni, the mayor of the center of Val Camonica, has negotiated a year and two months. While he was acquitted Mauro Bazzana, the first citizen in office in 2005 when the cross was installed. Renato Zanoni, the director of the works that led to the 2005 installation, Marco Maffessoli, president of the Pope's Cross Association, Don Filippo Stefani (parish priest of Cevo), Elsa Belotti and Lino Balotti, also representatives of the association that had the obligation to verify the periodic maintenance of the wood of the cross.

    For the latter three initially the pm Caty Bressanelli had requested the filing, but the gup had accepted the opposition to the provision filed by the parents of Marco Gusmini deciding the indictment. At trial, the abbreviated rite will open on Thursday, including two other priests. This is Don Santo Chiappaprini (zonal vicar), Monsignor Ivo Panteghini (head of the Curia Assets of Brescia) for whom the prosecution had requested archiving, but meeting the negative opinion of the Court of Brescia called into question by the victim's parents.

    "The collapse of the cross occurred because in the upper section of the building (30 meters tall, like a condominium, ed) water had infiltrated - yesterday during their deposition the engineers Francesco Passi and Dario Bianchetti, the prosecutors consultants who they were able to observe the cross after the collapse by taking all the construction docuмents in hand - To be aware of the humidity present in the artifact they needed exams to be carried out at least once every six months, but no one in 2005 at the time of the new installation conditions of the cross left dismantled on the ground for seven years".
    .
    .
    I used the autotranslate feature to render this from Italian into English.
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