Author Topic: Salvation for Non-members Possible (Read 1611 times)

Lover of Truth · « **on:** July 30, 2013, 12:02:52 PM »

Some (I stress some, many are of good will that I have learned from) Feeneyites on this blog make think of little alligators nipping at my feet. When they cannot refute an argument they just hit the dislike button.

They also remind me of "pro-choicers".

The pro-choicers never say "I believe in the right to kill innocent defenseless unborn babies". They just say "I believe in choice". Ah. How nice. They are cowards like many on this forum.

Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe. But insist they follow the dogma. Ah. How nice.

Tough nuts for you martyrs, pity you did not check with certain feeneyites first.

"Now, the Council teaches that a man must be in some way 'within' the Church of the faithful in order to be saved. It does not, however, in any way teach or even imply that no one other than one of the fideles can actually attain to the Beatific Vision. And, for that matter, no other authoritative declaration of the Church issues such a teaching or supports any such implication. It is not, and it has never been, the teaching of the Catholic Church that only actual members of the Church can attain eternal salvation. According to the teaching of the Church's own magisterium, salvation can be attained and, as a matter of fact, has been attained by persons who, at the moment of their death, were not members of this Church. The Church has thus never confused the notion of being 'outside the Church' with that of being a non-member of this society." (Fenton - Explain authentic Catholic teaching on Salvation)

Jehanne · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2013, 12:24:36 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe.

This is not the position of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2013, 12:39:03 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe.

This is not the position of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.

I am glad there are some who consider themselves Feeneyites that do admit it is possible to obtain the Beatific Vision without water Baptism.

Jehanne · « **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2013, 01:14:22 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe.

This is not the position of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.

I am glad there are some who consider themselves Feeneyites that do admit it is possible to obtain the Beatific Vision without water Baptism.

This was Father Feeney's position, also.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2013, 01:32:50 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe.

This is not the position of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.

I am glad there are some who consider themselves Feeneyites that do admit it is possible to obtain the Beatific Vision without water Baptism.

This was Father Feeney's position, also.

Didn't he hold that you could be justified without water baptism but still would not obtain the Beatific Vision unless you were baptized with water?

I was once very aware of what he taught but would like to see it again.

There is the more popular brand of "feeneyism" now popularized by the brothers Dimond. That simply states no water no Heaven. This seems to be what the majority that reject part of the Catholic teaching on Salvation seem to hold, and insist on. But those who insist you must be a member in order to be saved are equally wrong.

Then there are those who admit BOB. And some BOD but only for catechumens. They decide for God who dies in a state sanctifying grace within the Church. Take care of His light work I guess. These last, though closer to the truth engage in obstinate wrangling, seeming to know who is in mortal sin or not and who is culpably ignorant or not.

reconquest · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2013, 05:30:49 PM »

How do the Dimonds and their ilk explain Jesus' promise to the repentant robber on the cross?

Matto · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2013, 05:34:40 PM »

Quote from: reconquest

How do the Dimonds and their ilk explain Jesus' promise to the repentant robber on the cross?

He died under the old law before baptism was necessary for salvation.

Stubborn · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2013, 12:16:33 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe.

This is not the position of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.

I am glad there are some who consider themselves Feeneyites that do admit it is possible to obtain the Beatific Vision without water Baptism.

This was Father Feeney's position, also.

Didn't he hold that you could be justified without water baptism but still would not obtain the Beatific Vision unless you were baptized with water?

I was once very aware of what he taught but would like to see it again.

There is the more popular brand of "feeneyism" now popularized by the brothers Dimond. That simply states no water no Heaven. This seems to be what the majority that reject part of the Catholic teaching on Salvation seem to hold, and insist on. But those who insist you must be a member in order to be saved are equally wrong.

Then there are those who admit BOB. And some BOD but only for catechumens. They decide for God who dies in a state sanctifying grace within the Church. Take care of His light work I guess. These last, though closer to the truth engage in obstinate wrangling, seeming to know who is in mortal sin or not and who is culpably ignorant or not.

I don't know where Jehanne gets the idea that Fr. Feeney believed salvation outside the Church was a possibility, but your posts cheapen the necessity of the Sacrament and also actually being a member of the Church in order to obtain salvation. You've all but come out and proclaimed that the True faith and the Sacrament is not necessary for everyone.

I will tell you that I just went through an episode where I received the Last Rites, i.e. the Sacrament of Extreme Unction - something you seem to think is pretty much a giant waste of someone's time - you can preach all you want against the necessity of membership in the Church and against the necessity of the Sacrament, and make no mistake, that IS what you are doing.

But one of these days you too will meet death face to face, then let's see how you cling to your rosary and scapular while preaching that they are not necessary. Let's see how you call for a priest while proclaiming a priest is really not much more than a nice option. Let's see how you plead with heaven for mercy, when all your fasts, sacrifices, Communions, Confessions and Masses stand with you for your defense for your eternal fate about to be imposed upon you by the "Judge Severe", while preaching that only a certain few actually need to be concerned about such things.

Then - lets see you stand up and declare salvation outside the Church is possible, that the sacraments are optional for everyone except you of course - as you cling with all your might to all the teachings, truths, sacraments, saints and faith that you preach as being unnecessary for everyone else.

Jehanne · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2013, 12:49:21 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

I don't know where Jehanne gets the idea that Fr. Feeney believed salvation outside the Church was a possibility, but your posts cheapen the necessity of the Sacrament and also actually being a member of the Church in order to obtain salvation. You've all but come out and proclaimed that the True faith and the Sacrament is not necessary for everyone.

That's not what I said. Father Feeney considered his ideas on the absolute necessity of sacramental Baptism to be theological opinion. This guy knew him personally:

http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/laisneyism.html

Stubborn · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2013, 01:54:24 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Stubborn
I don't know where Jehanne gets the idea that Fr. Feeney believed salvation outside the Church was a possibility, but your posts cheapen the necessity of the Sacrament and also actually being a member of the Church in order to obtain salvation. You've all but come out and proclaimed that the True faith and the Sacrament is not necessary for everyone.

That's not what I said. Father Feeney considered his ideas on the absolute necessity of sacramental Baptism to be theological opinion. This guy knew him personally:

http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/laisneyism.html

You forget about that Fr. Laisney.....from Fr. Wathen's book, Who Shall Ascend?:

Very late in our work on this present book, Fr. Francois Laisney has come forward with a small treatise, which is entitled Baptism of Desire.' This work is more important than it appears to be, not because it is right, but because it reveals very clearly the Liberal theology of the Society of St. Pius X, a very disturbing thing. There are probably more priests of this Society in the field than all other Traditionalist priests put together. This means that everywhere they go these zealous young priests disseminate what Fr. Laisney refers to as "the doctrine" of Baptism of Desire. Anyone who does not accept this "doctrine" is referred to as a "Feeneyite."

Fr. Wathen goes on at length, dissecting the errors of Fr. Laisney - who is no friend of Fr. Feeney.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2013, 06:05:42 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe.

This is not the position of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.

I am glad there are some who consider themselves Feeneyites that do admit it is possible to obtain the Beatific Vision without water Baptism.

This was Father Feeney's position, also.

Didn't he hold that you could be justified without water baptism but still would not obtain the Beatific Vision unless you were baptized with water?

I was once very aware of what he taught but would like to see it again.

There is the more popular brand of "feeneyism" now popularized by the brothers Dimond. That simply states no water no Heaven. This seems to be what the majority that reject part of the Catholic teaching on Salvation seem to hold, and insist on. But those who insist you must be a member in order to be saved are equally wrong.

Then there are those who admit BOB. And some BOD but only for catechumens. They decide for God who dies in a state sanctifying grace within the Church. Take care of His light work I guess. These last, though closer to the truth engage in obstinate wrangling, seeming to know who is in mortal sin or not and who is culpably ignorant or not.

I don't know where Jehanne gets the idea that Fr. Feeney believed salvation outside the Church was a possibility, but your posts cheapen the necessity of the Sacrament and also actually being a member of the Church in order to obtain salvation. You've all but come out and proclaimed that the True faith and the Sacrament is not necessary for everyone.

I will tell you that I just went through an episode where I received the Last Rites, i.e. the Sacrament of Extreme Unction - something you seem to think is pretty much a giant waste of someone's time - you can preach all you want against the necessity of membership in the Church and against the necessity of the Sacrament, and make no mistake, that IS what you are doing.

But one of these days you too will meet death face to face, then let's see how you cling to your rosary and scapular while preaching that they are not necessary. Let's see how you call for a priest while proclaiming a priest is really not much more than a nice option. Let's see how you plead with heaven for mercy, when all your fasts, sacrifices, Communions, Confessions and Masses stand with you for your defense for your eternal fate about to be imposed upon you by the "Judge Severe", while preaching that only a certain few actually need to be concerned about such things.

Then - lets see you stand up and declare salvation outside the Church is possible, that the sacraments are optional for everyone except you of course - as you cling with all your might to all the teachings, truths, sacraments, saints and faith that you preach as being unnecessary for everyone else.

Where does having mortal sins forgiven at death become not important merely because one accepts what the Church teaches on Salvation?

Stubborn · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2013, 08:09:09 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe.

This is not the position of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.

I am glad there are some who consider themselves Feeneyites that do admit it is possible to obtain the Beatific Vision without water Baptism.

This was Father Feeney's position, also.

Didn't he hold that you could be justified without water baptism but still would not obtain the Beatific Vision unless you were baptized with water?

I was once very aware of what he taught but would like to see it again.

There is the more popular brand of "feeneyism" now popularized by the brothers Dimond. That simply states no water no Heaven. This seems to be what the majority that reject part of the Catholic teaching on Salvation seem to hold, and insist on. But those who insist you must be a member in order to be saved are equally wrong.

Then there are those who admit BOB. And some BOD but only for catechumens. They decide for God who dies in a state sanctifying grace within the Church. Take care of His light work I guess. These last, though closer to the truth engage in obstinate wrangling, seeming to know who is in mortal sin or not and who is culpably ignorant or not.

I don't know where Jehanne gets the idea that Fr. Feeney believed salvation outside the Church was a possibility, but your posts cheapen the necessity of the Sacrament and also actually being a member of the Church in order to obtain salvation. You've all but come out and proclaimed that the True faith and the Sacrament is not necessary for everyone.

I will tell you that I just went through an episode where I received the Last Rites, i.e. the Sacrament of Extreme Unction - something you seem to think is pretty much a giant waste of someone's time - you can preach all you want against the necessity of membership in the Church and against the necessity of the Sacrament, and make no mistake, that IS what you are doing.

But one of these days you too will meet death face to face, then let's see how you cling to your rosary and scapular while preaching that they are not necessary. Let's see how you call for a priest while proclaiming a priest is really not much more than a nice option. Let's see how you plead with heaven for mercy, when all your fasts, sacrifices, Communions, Confessions and Masses stand with you for your defense for your eternal fate about to be imposed upon you by the "Judge Severe", while preaching that only a certain few actually need to be concerned about such things.

Then - lets see you stand up and declare salvation outside the Church is possible, that the sacraments are optional for everyone except you of course - as you cling with all your might to all the teachings, truths, sacraments, saints and faith that you preach as being unnecessary for everyone else.

Where does having mortal sins forgiven at death become not important merely because one accepts what the Church teaches on Salvation?

You just keep belittling the necessity of the sacraments and the necessity of the Catholic Church while, for now, you sit comfortably a Baptized Catholic. Stop your hypocrisy already.

If you want to make a crusade against the necessity of the faith and sacraments, go do it on FE or CAF, you'll find yourself in very good company there.

MiserereMeiDeus · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2013, 11:21:33 AM »

Council of Trent, Decree on Justification:

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

MiserereMeiDeus · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2013, 11:27:52 AM »

Also from the Council of Trent, the fourth general canon on the sacraments:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

St. Alphonsus de Liguouri:

Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means washing or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of spirit, and of blood. ... But Baptism of spirit is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of spirit' because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Spirit. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of spirit, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, 'de presbyt ero non baptizato' and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire.

Stubborn · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2013, 11:43:24 AM »

Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus

Council of Trent, Decree on Justification:

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

According to the catechism which came from Trent, the words you bolded mean..................

"The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken.

Insane, delirious persons who were once of sound mind and afterwards became deranged, having in their present state no wish to be baptised, are not to be admitted to Baptism, unless in danger of death. In such cases, if previous to insanity they give intimation of a wish to be baptised, the Sacrament is to be administered; without such indication previously given it is not to be administered. The same rule is to be followed with regard to persons who are unconscious.

But if they (the insane) never enjoyed the use of reason, the authority and practice of the Church decide that they are to be baptised in the faith of the Church, just as children are baptised before they come to the use of reason."

You should have bolded as was done below - once you do, see if you still can make it mean that here is such a thing as BOD.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.