Author Topic: Salvation for Non-members Possible (Read 1619 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2013, 11:50:02 AM »

Read it as it is written, not what you want it to say - do you still believe the Sacrament is not necessary unto salvation?

Are you saying that without them, men can obtain salvation? If so, explain how you could arrive at that conclusion from the canon of Trent.

Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus

Also from the Council of Trent, the fourth general canon on the sacraments:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

MiserereMeiDeus · « **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2013, 09:30:10 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Read it as it is written, not what you want it to say - do you still believe the Sacrament is not necessary unto salvation?

Are you saying that without them, men can obtain salvation? If so, explain how you could arrive at that conclusion from the canon of Trent.

Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
Also from the Council of Trent, the fourth general canon on the sacraments:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

You are putting words in my mouth. Read the entire 4th Canon, and don't put a half mile of space between its two halves.

MiserereMeiDeus · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2013, 09:37:46 PM »

The point that Canon 4 makes dogmatically and infallibly is that the sacraments are necessary, but that despite that, the desire for Baptism by water is sufficient if death intervenes before the actual sacrament can be administered. St. Alphonsus goes on to explain that BOD is sufficient to achieve salvation, but it does not remit the temporal punishment due to previous sins the way Baptism by water does, and does not impress the same character on the soul.

Jehanne · « **Reply #18 on:** August 01, 2013, 10:05:21 PM »

Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus

The point that Canon 4 makes dogmatically and infallibly is that the sacraments are necessary, but that despite that, the desire for Baptism by water is sufficient if death intervenes before the actual sacrament can be administered. St. Alphonsus goes on to explain that BOD is sufficient to achieve salvation, but it does not remit the temporal punishment due to previous sins the way Baptism by water does, and does not impress the same character on the soul.

I agree with the above 100%. And, here's the big problem which I have with BoD:

If BoD (per some of its adherents' understanding of it) is correct and it is de fide that there are individuals who are saved without sacramental Baptism who pass into the afterlife lacking the character of that Sacrament, then it follows that is de fide that there are souls suffering in Purgatory because they died without being able to receive Baptism in Water, that which they explicitly desired.

Hence, we must believe that the omnipotent God allowed individuals to die without the Sacrament which they explicitly desired, and because of that, they have to suffer in the afterlife. Per the BoDers, we are not even "allowed to hope" that even the true martyrs for Christ who desired Baptism explicitly were allowed to receive which they desired and prayed for, even if history failed to record their reception of that Sacrament.

Cathedra · « **Reply #19 on:** August 01, 2013, 11:50:06 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Some (I stress some, many are of good will that I have learned from) Feeneyites on this blog make think of little alligators nipping at my feet. When they cannot refute an argument they just hit the dislike button.

They also remind me of "pro-choicers".

The pro-choicers never say "I believe in the right to kill innocent defenseless unborn babies". They just say "I believe in choice". Ah. How nice. They are cowards like many on this forum.

Ask a feeneyite that believes and insists that you must be a water baptized member of the Catholic Church for salvation to be possible if a person who is willingly martyred for Christ before he has a chance to be baptized will burn for ever. They avoid responding or admitting this is what their error forces them to believe. But insist they follow the dogma. Ah. How nice.

Tough nuts for you martyrs, pity you did not check with certain feeneyites first.

Although i am not a "Feeneyite" and i believe in the baptisms, as the saints taught them that is, i already answered to this, the "cruelty" objection.

But you didn't give any answer to that.

Quote from: Lover of Truth

"Now, the Council teaches that a man must be in some way 'within' the Church of the faithful in order to be saved.

Where has the Church EVER taught that you must be "in some way" within the Church of the faithful in order to be saved? Where does this "in some way" come from?

Quote from: Lover of Truth

It does not, however, in any way teach or even imply that no one other than one of the fideles can actually attain to the Beatific Vision.

Oh no?

"There is one universal Church OF THE FAITHFUL, OUTSIDE OF WHICH NO ONE AT ALL IS SAVED." Fourth Lateran Council.

And everyone admits that the unbaptized and even catechumens are not "part of the faithful".

Riddle me that.

Quote from: Lover of Truth

"And, for that matter, no other authoritative declaration of the Church issues such a teaching or supports any such implication.

Hmm.

Cathedra · « **Reply #20 on:** August 02, 2013, 12:00:15 AM »

Quote from: Cathedra

Quote from: Lover of Truth
"Now, the Council teaches that a man must be in some way 'within' the Church of the faithful in order to be saved.

Where has the Church EVER taught that you must be "in some way" within the Church of the faithful in order to be saved? Where does this "in some way" come from?

Correction: what i should have written was, "the Council DID NOT say that you must be united to the Church "in some way". Fenton is the only one saying that for anyone can read for himself what the Council said.

Deliveringit · « **Reply #21 on:** August 02, 2013, 12:04:30 AM »

Lover of Truth, apparently you are a lover of lies. Why do you refuse to accept the infallible dogmatic teaching of the Holy Catholic Church which clearly says that one can only enter the Church through water baptism and that one is only in the Church after one enters it. Therefore all who are outside of it cannot receive salvation which is also a dogma of the Church. You modernists need to stay in the Catholic Answers Forum

Stubborn · « **Reply #22 on:** August 02, 2013, 06:55:51 AM »

Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus

You are putting words in my mouth. Read the entire 4th Canon, and don't put a half mile of space between its two halves.

You needed the space between it's two halves in order for you to see that it does not state that the desire for baptism suffices for salvation, which is why I broke it up for you. If you did not understand that, read it again as it is written. The word "salvation" does not even appear in the canon.

Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus

The point that Canon 4 makes dogmatically and infallibly is that the sacraments are necessary, but that despite that, the desire for Baptism by water is sufficient if death intervenes before the actual sacrament can be administered.

I posted to you the definition from Trent's original catechism for "or the desire thereof", why do you not believe what it so clearly states? Neither it nor the canon states such a thing as you do here above. You have to make your own exceptions to dogma in order to come up with what you did above.

BODers admittedly add all kinds of things into the canon(s) that are not in there - why?

Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus

St. Alphonsus goes on to explain that BOD is sufficient to achieve salvation, but it does not remit the temporal punishment due to previous sins the way Baptism by water does, and does not impress the same character on the soul.

Other saints, including the Angelic Doctor St. Thomas also taught of a BOD - so what.

The Church, through Her popes and Councils have infallibly defined the necessity of the Sacrament in order to be a member of the Church - why depend on the good saint whom we already know is fallible, after knowing that we have been bound by the Church to believe that the Sacrament is wholly necessary for everyone?