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Author Topic: Sacraments- Internal intention  (Read 22317 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sacraments- Internal intention
« Reply #60 on: Yesterday at 05:23:15 PM »
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  • HINT:  this internal vs. external distinction is also confounded by people who equate the obligation to give "internal assent" to even he on-infallible teachings of the Church with internally believing the truth (even if you think it's wrong).  There's an analogy with the warping of that term with the warping of "internal intention" vis-a-vis the Sacraments.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sacraments- Internal intention
    « Reply #61 on: Yesterday at 05:32:37 PM »
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  • Define and provide an example of "external intention".

    Sounds like a contradiction ... and oxymoron if you will.  Isn't "intention" something that by definition internal?

    Why, yes, yes it is, as Pope Leo XII explains in Apostolicae Curae (33) ... "intention ... is something by its nature internal".

    So what is this "external intention" that's condemned in Catharinus.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sacraments- Internal intention
    « Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 05:39:56 PM »
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  • Since the slanderer will undoubtedly be stumped and have no answer, "external intention" refers to

    MERELY HAVING THE INTENTION TO PERFORM THE EXTERNALS

    I saw someone pouring water on a person's head while saying the words "I baptize thee etc."  Yep.  Valid.  But, wait a minute ... this was in a movie where a guy was dressed like a priest.  Doesn't matter.  Valid. [=external intention, i.e. it suffices to intend to perform the externals only].  But, wait a minute ... I saw the guy running around laughing and sticking his tongue out, saying, "haha, I baptize thee etc. ... you moron".  Doesn't matter.  Valid [=external intention].  But, wait a minute ... the priest said he was just demonstrating how to perform the Rite.  Doesn't matter.  Valid [=external intention].

    THAT is what's meant by "external intention", and we understand "internal intention" by contrast with this term.  Simply intending to perform the externals of the Rite, saying the right words, pouring the water (or applying other matter) ... does to not suffices by themselves.  Those must be accompanied by the intention of the minister to be doing what the Church does and acting in the capacity of a minister of the Church.

    Catharinus' position might only exclude someone who was, say, sleepwalking and had no idea what he was saying and yet performed a Sacrament, since there was no intention there whatsoever.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Sacraments- Internal intention
    « Reply #63 on: Yesterday at 05:41:47 PM »
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  • “The allegation is very serious”

    ”It’s not an allegation he admitted it”

    Get your story straight Tommy! :fryingpan:

    It could be a cold day in you know where before Tom figures out how to actually listen to the thoughts in his head.  The problem is that he's so happy intelligent people are taking time out for his dribble he might not make the needed adjustments.  But I'm rooting for ya, bud.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sacraments- Internal intention
    « Reply #64 on: Yesterday at 06:02:20 PM »
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  • Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Sacraments- Internal intention
    « Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 06:42:27 PM »
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  • The question of when a minister deliberately witholds intention has already been discussed hundreds of years ago.
    By far the common opinion was that it does invalidate.
    No amount of diatribe or distraction from that point will make things otherwise.

    Like I said, we are morally required to investigate when the admission of doing such a horrendous thing is admitted to.

    Lacking the man himself to do that, our only action has to be conditionally ordain and consecrate.

    We cannot presume everything is alright.

    The sedes here refuse to admit that their sedevacantism is the real reason they don't want to think reasonably on this point.

    It drives them crazy to think Lefebvres line is the only line to be trusted.