Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Sacramental Records in the Resistance  (Read 348 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DirigeNos

  • Supporter
Sacramental Records in the Resistance
« on: Yesterday at 07:25:41 AM »
For us attendees of resistance or independent priests, does anyone have a concern about sacramental records being maintained properly? Will they be maintained? Where and by whom?

For example, you attend at a resistance mission. Sometimes Mass is in a hotel room, a rental space, a private property, etc. The priest comes once a month and sometimes different priests come year to year. The person who is the "secretary/parish coordinator" changes every few years. There's obviously no diocese main office where a copy of the records go. Where is the sacramental record book?

Say you have a son and he was baptized by a missionary priest. 20-30 years later, he wants to get married. The church asks for his baptismal certificate. His parents pull out an old copy from the file cabinet. That's not good enough, they say, you must contact your parish from your childhood and they must produce a new certificate and mail it direct. (this is standard practice). Uh oh, there's no traceability - now what? Maybe the priest who baptized you has passed away already. Maybe he's in a different country now. There's been situations where the priest performed a baptism and didn't even tell anybody. He signed a certificate for the parents, but neglected to fill out a duplicate record and nothing was recorded in a registry. (I know a case where this happened with a resistance priest.)

Do you feel this is a legitimate concern, or no concern?

[There are also cases where marriages took place with independent priests and one party felt that they had a loophole to get an annulment. The diocese granted one. Obviously, very bad.]

Offline Twice dyed

  • Supporter
Re: Sacramental Records in the Resistance
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 08:54:06 AM »
I share your concern about this... There were 3 baptism so far at our "mission", and nothing is written down. I wanted to get some Certificates from a religious goods store, but didn't do that, because of time restraints, and the parents too carefree... But this is a situation that will cause problems later on...
   The Creation of  our "SSPX-Resistance Global Records Chancellery " is a must. Baptisms (godparents), Confirmations, Marriages, Deaths, Ordinations, Consecrations of bishops...etc.   Paper trail...Do a service for the children and faithful and create a database. With security protocols [Password]of course...where only priests could research the sacramental history of Resistance Catholics. I think we are in for the long haul, and right now, we are cheating our youth. 

Input anyone?

 


Offline ElwinRansom1970

  • Supporter
Re: Sacramental Records in the Resistance
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 11:08:36 AM »
I share your concern about this... There were 3 baptism so far at our "mission", and nothing is written down. I wanted to get some Certificates from a religious goods store, but didn't do that, because of time restraints, and the parents too carefree... But this is a situation that will cause problems later on...
  The Creation of  our "SSPX-Resistance Global Records Chancellery " is a must. Baptisms (godparents), Confirmations, Marriages, Deaths, Ordinations, Consecrations of bishops...etc.  Paper trail...Do a service for the children and faithful and create a database. With security protocols [Password]of course...where only priests could research the sacramental history of Resistance Catholics. I think we are in for the long haul, and right now, we are cheating our youth.

Input anyone?

 
First, sacramental records are a public record -- and in some countries even a legal record! Absolute secrecy is a big canonical No No! Access to the sacramental registers can be controlled in a limited way, but in a total way.

Second, whilst a copy of sacramental records may be kept in a digital database, canonically they must be maintained in a written form in a actual register book with the required information for each sacrament. So, a "password" for only priests to have access to a register is not only a big canonical No No!, but also is irrelevant since an actual book register must be maintained.

When a person receives the sacraments of Confirmation, Matrimony, or Holy Orders, or a person makes perpetual religious vows, the parish or institute where these occurred has a serious responsibility to notify the parish of Baptism and these are to by notated in the Baptismal register. Baptismal registers actually have spaces with each entry for notations. And, yes, this means trad Mass centers and missions notifying Novus Ordo parishes because these are where so many of us were baptized. (We trads do not really have "parishes" apart from a few FSSP or ICK locations that were erected as canonical parishes prior to TC in 2021.)

If a person has received a declaration of nullity regarding a putative marriage, a copy of the decree of nullity should be sent from the Tribunal and placed in the Marriage register at the page where the putative marriage had been recorded. Additionally, the parish of Baptism is to be notified of the annulment and this is noted in the baptismal register.

Registers that should also be maintained are First Communion, Catechumenal, Sick Call, and Death registers, but these are not as essential as the Baptism, Confirmation, and Matrimony registers.

Lastly, all these registers are to be kept locally at a Mass center or mission in a locked, fire-proof safe (just like sacred vessels). They are not kept a some centralised depository -- once more, that would be a big canonical No No! Records change location only in the event that some change in status occurs to the local record holder. Examples: A parish is outright suppressed and the registers then go to a diocesan archive, or a parish is absorbed into a neighbouring parish so that the registers are transferred to that absorbing parish.

This is a VERY serious matter and no priest and lay person should be negligent or dismissive of this.

Offline DirigeNos

  • Supporter
Re: Sacramental Records in the Resistance
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 12:59:31 PM »
First, sacramental records are a public record -- and in some countries even a legal record! Absolute secrecy is a big canonical No No! Access to the sacramental registers can be controlled in a limited way, but in a total way.

Second, whilst a copy of sacramental records may be kept in a digital database, canonically they must be maintained in a written form in a actual register book with the required information for each sacrament. So, a "password" for only priests to have access to a register is not only a big canonical No No!, but also is irrelevant since an actual book register must be maintained.

When a person receives the sacraments of Confirmation, Matrimony, or Holy Orders, or a person makes perpetual religious vows, the parish or institute where these occurred has a serious responsibility to notify the parish of Baptism and these are to by notated in the Baptismal register. Baptismal registers actually have spaces with each entry for notations. And, yes, this means trad Mass centers and missions notifying Novus Ordo parishes because these are where so many of us were baptized. (We trads do not really have "parishes" apart from a few FSSP or ICK locations that were erected as canonical parishes prior to TC in 2021.)

If a person has received a declaration of nullity regarding a putative marriage, a copy of the decree of nullity should be sent from the Tribunal and placed in the Marriage register at the page where the putative marriage had been recorded. Additionally, the parish of Baptism is to be notified of the annulment and this is noted in the baptismal register.

Registers that should also be maintained are First Communion, Catechumenal, Sick Call, and Death registers, but these are not as essential as the Baptism, Confirmation, and Matrimony registers.

Lastly, all these registers are to be kept locally at a Mass center or mission in a locked, fire-proof safe (just like sacred vessels). They are not kept a some centralised depository -- once more, that would be a big canonical No No! Records change location only in the event that some change in status occurs to the local record holder. Examples: A parish is outright suppressed and the registers then go to a diocesan archive, or a parish is absorbed into a neighbouring parish so that the registers are transferred to that absorbing parish.

This is a VERY serious matter and no priest and lay person should be negligent or dismissive of this.

Yes, persons other than priests have reasons to request a certificate (for example the individual themselves if they need to prove their baptism or confirmation). Unfortunately there are people that cheat the system because of the crisis. They get an annulment in one place and a marriage in another, then marry again as they please. Of course you can't cheat God. If you were married in the church in the eyes of God, there are very few reasons for a true annulment. People think is like a vending machine or mcdolands. They can put their money and pick what they like. "have it your way". At least before, the legalities would stop them if their fear of God did not stop them. The church had a system of checks. It's hard when the authorities defect and you lose the structure. I agree, it would be nice to have one central "resistance" database of records. I like physical copies backed up with digital copies because it's easy to lose a server or a database. Difficult times. Hopefully no resistance priest would doubt someone's baptism if there is reasonableble proof from a reliable source. Hopefully if you were baptized in Catholic tradition, you are also seeking to marry in Catholic tradition.

Re: Sacramental Records in the Resistance
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 03:19:37 PM »
The reason we have these records is to avoid fraud. 

You should really try to keep your own records and store them along with your other essential records. 

I wouldnt go worrying too much about this. God knows we have been baptized and after all the paper is just paper. It cannot replace trust.