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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 27690 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #660 on: June 30, 2023, 03:54:52 PM »
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  • Pope Celestine resigned in 1294.  He died 2 years later in 1296.  Pope Boniface VIII was elected also in 1294....long before Pope Celestine died. 

    Did you know that at that time there was no detailed law of papal elections? The definition of "canonically-elected" changes over time. It depends on what the laws in place at the time of the papal election.

    Here is the sad story of Pope Celestine V (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V):

    "Realizing his lack of authority and personal incompatibility with papal duties, he consulted with Cardinal Benedetto Caetani (his eventual successor) about the possibility of resignation. This resulted in one final decree declaring the right of resignation. He promptly exercised this right, resigning on 13 December 1294, after five months and eight days as pope. The former Celestine, now reverted to Pietro Angelerio, was not allowed to become a hermit once again. Various parties had opposed his resignation and the new Pope Boniface VIII had reason to worry that one of them might install him as an antipope. To prevent this he ordered Pietro to accompany him to Rome. Pietro escaped and hid in the woods before attempting to return to Sulmona to resume monastic life. This proved impossible, and Pietro was captured after an attempt to flee to Dalmatia was thwarted when a tempest forced his ship to return to port. Boniface imprisoned him in the castle of Fumone near Ferentino in Lazio, attended by two monks of his order, where Pietro died after 10 months at about the age of 81. His supporters spread the allegation that Boniface had treated him harshly and ultimately executed Pietro, but there is no clear historical evidence of this."

    So, Pope Celestine asked the Cardinal who wanted to replace him for legal advice. The Cardinal told him it was a-ok to resign. Then, the fact that there were two possible papal claimants living at the same time caused a rebellion against Boniface VIII. So Boniface imprisoned Celestine.

    And that is the reason that the Church decided, in its wisdom, to have a very detailed papal election law that could be adjusted to prevent abuses. The latest version is Universi Dominici Gregis (with the minor updates linked at the top of the online docuмent).

    To refer to the Celestine/Boniface situation as evidence to defend your interpretation of the law is equivalent to going to court and telling the judge that speed limits did not exist before 1920 and, that being the case, you were well within your rights to go 100 mph in that school zone.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #661 on: June 30, 2023, 04:05:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    So, when the Pope resigns, the Apostolic See is not yet vacant. It only become "lawfully vacant" upon "the death of the Pope." 
    You still haven't posted any actual evidence for this.  You keep posting regs related to when a pope dies.  


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #662 on: June 30, 2023, 04:23:46 PM »
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  • Do you mean Canon 912 (1983 Code)?

    Any baptized person not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion.
    Quilibet baptizatus, qui iure non prohibeatur, admitti potest et debet ad sacram communionem.

    Which is essentially identical to Canon 853 (1917 Code)?

    Any baptized person who is not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion.
    Quilibet baptizatus qui iure non prohibetur, admitti potest et debet ad sacram communionem.

    The only difference between the two formulations is the use of the subjunctive mood versus the indicative mood of the Latin verb prohibeo.
    You're seriously playing the expert on canon law and you can't find this notorious canon? It's canon 844. I'll even provide you with the rest of the "magisterium" of your "popes." 

    https://tinyurl.com/mhfm-communion-non-catholics
    Canon 844.4, 1983 Code of Canon Law:
    “If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed.”[6]
    Canon 844.3, 1983 Code of Canon Law:
    “Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned.”[7]

    Vatican II docuмent, Orientalium Ecclesiarum # 27:
    “Given the above-mentioned principles, the sacraments of Penance, Holy Eucharist, and the anointing of the sick may be conferred on eastern Christians who in good faith are separated from the Catholic Church, if they make the request of their own accord and are properly disposed.”[2]

    John Paul II, Catechism of the Catholic Church (# 1401):
    “… Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church…”[4]

    I repeat, do you accept the solemn, constant, universal teaching of your sect and its canon law that non-Catholics may receive Holy Communion or are you a hypocrite?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #663 on: June 30, 2023, 05:11:04 PM »
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  • You still haven't posted any actual evidence for this.  You keep posting regs related to when a pope dies. 

    The Apostolic See is made up of more offices that just the Pope. So, even if the Pope resigns his office, those other people in the other offices that make up the Apostolic See (as defined in Canon 861) have not resigned. So, if the Pope alone resigns his office, the Apostolic See is not vacant because the other offices that make up the Apostolic See (according to Canon 861) are not vacant. Those other offices (the ones discussed in Canon 861) do not become vacant until AFTER the Pope dies (which law you can find in UDG 14, and Pastor Bonus 6). 

    So, Canon 861, UDG 14, and Pastor Bonus 6, all explain the process and require that it be nothing other than that.

    Please tell me why you think that a papal resignation (Canon 332) creates a vacancy in the Apostolic See. Please show me your "regs" for that. You will not find any. You are just assuming that it works a certain way, but that is not how the law says it works.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #664 on: June 30, 2023, 05:26:42 PM »
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  • You still haven't posted any actual evidence for this.  You keep posting regs related to when a pope dies. 

    We need to stop wasting our time with this nonsense.  It's utterly absurd, and not a single person who calls himself Catholic believes it except Angelus.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #665 on: June 30, 2023, 05:42:46 PM »
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  • You're seriously playing the expert on canon law and you can't find this notorious canon? It's canon 844. I'll even provide you with the rest of the "magisterium" of your "popes."

    https://tinyurl.com/mhfm-communion-non-catholics
    Canon 844.4, 1983 Code of Canon Law:
    “If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed.”[6]
    Canon 844.3, 1983 Code of Canon Law:
    “Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned.”[7]

    Vatican II docuмent, Orientalium Ecclesiarum # 27:
    “Given the above-mentioned principles, the sacraments of Penance, Holy Eucharist, and the anointing of the sick may be conferred on eastern Christians who in good faith are separated from the Catholic Church, if they make the request of their own accord and are properly disposed.”[2]

    John Paul II, Catechism of the Catholic Church (# 1401):
    “… Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church…”[4]

    I repeat, do you accept the solemn, constant, universal teaching of your sect and its canon law that non-Catholics may receive Holy Communion or are you a hypocrite?

    Canon 853 (1917 Code) used the phrase "any baptized person." Why do you think it did not use the phrase "any baptized Catholic?"

    You suggested it would be impossible under the 1917 Code to admit non-Catholics to the Sacraments. That is not correct. Under the 1917 Code, non-Catholics could be admitted to the Sacraments unless they did not meet the requirements of Canon 731.2:

    "731 § 2. it is forbidden that the Sacraments of the Church be ministered to heretics and schismatics, even if they ask for them and are in good faith, unless beforehand, rejecting their errors, they are reconciled with the Church."

    So, it speaks of people who are "heretics and schismatics," not just "members of the oriental churches" and "other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church."

    Please notice that the language used is different in the two Codes, and 1983 code better reflects the fact that not all people who are "members of" other Churches are automatically guilty of "heresy" and "schism." Some of those "members of" the other Churches might be clueless about the differences between their faith that they grew up with in Siberia and the Catholic faith. So, as long at they "make the request of their own accord and are properly disposed," they are allowed to receive Holy Communion. 

    And so, the 1983 code is not really talking about the same people as the 1917 code. But clearly a professed "heretic" or "schismatic" will not be someone who is "properly disposed" even in 1983 canon law, because by definition in 1983 canon law "heresy" and "schism" merit automatic excommunication.

    Admittedly, the phrase "properly disposed" in 1983 Code is extremely vague. But so is the phrase "reconciled with the Church" in the 1917 Code. In fact, to be "reconciled" implies that the person was at one time a Catholic and voluntarily leave the Church. We would not say that a person who grew up in Siberia, never seeing a Catholic church, would need to be reconciled with the Church, right?

    Anyway, the language in Canon 853 (1917 Code) expresses the possibility that non-Catholics, in certain circuмstances, can receive Holy Communion.


    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #666 on: July 02, 2023, 04:16:11 PM »
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  • Nope.  Only the Church can interpret, inquire and decide canon law. 


    You can privately “judge” all you want, but the moment you apply your judgment to a person, or circuмstances, you’ve overstepped your bounds.  Then you’re acting like a Protestant, creating your own interpretation of law, sin, etc.  And that’s the definition of chaos. 

    And here we go in circles again.  You tell me that I cannot judge the public SIN of manifest formal heresy.  I ask you to prove me where in Church teaching or moral theology it states that WITHOUT reverting to mentioning Canon Law, and instead your revert back to mentioning Canon Law.  Your claim that I cannot judge the public SIN of manifest formal heresy is simply that - your claim with no foundation.  Give it up.

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #667 on: July 02, 2023, 04:20:00 PM »
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  • I’m not judging anything.  Church officials have said that pope x is pope.  As a catholic, I either obey that judgment or act schismatically.  End of story. 

    I’m not opposed to sedevacantism (ie Fr Chazal's sede-impoundism or sede-privationism) but there are limits to what laity/priests can decide.  Many of you go far, far beyond those limits.  That’s the problem. 

    If Jorge Bergoglio were to publicly admit that he knows he publicly teaches heresy but refuses to step down and the cardinals and bishops refused to do anything about it, would you still accept him as pope?