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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 28017 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #645 on: June 29, 2023, 05:46:02 PM »
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  • As I demonstrated in my last post, you have the wrong model in your head. You think that the Apostolic See is ONLY made up of the Roman Pontiff. You are incorrect in that assumption, according to 1983 Canon law:

    Can. 361 In this Code, the term Apostolic See or Holy See refers not only to the Roman Pontiff but also to the Secretariat of State, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, and other institutes of the Roman Curia, unless it is otherwise apparent from the nature of the matter or the context of the words.

    The Apostolic See is not "lawfully vacant" until the death of the Roman Pontiff as UDG 14 states:

    14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus, at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office.

    Here is Pastor Bonus, 6:

    Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Search Pastor Bonus all you want. You will not find that upon "resignation" of the Pontiff that the Curial officials cease from their office. Only upon the death of the Pontiff do the curial officials lose their offices. Therefore, until the death of the Pontiff, the Apostolic See (which includes the Curia according to Canon 361) cannot possibly be lawfully vacant.

    https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19880628_pastor-bonus.html

    Angelus,

    I'm not weighing in on this, but as a casual observer, it doesn't appear to me that you're dealing with the language of:

    Quote
    JP2's Universi Dominici Gregis77.

    I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

    If the pope must be dead, how can a vacancy occur if the pope merely resigns? Your position makes the "if" in "if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff" an absurdity and worse, since you say it's the case that the See couldn't become "vacant" upon a papal resignation, does it not?

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #646 on: June 29, 2023, 05:55:43 PM »
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  • I can't believe that you persist in clinging to this nonsense.  Why don't you just argue that Ratzinger didn't properly resign like the other Bennyvacantists do?  Even they would repudiate this stuff.  It's just an absurd denial of common sense, common sense being that you only need funeral rites if a pope has died, not if he's resigned.

    I persist in the truth because Bergoglio is the non-canonically-elected destroyer that St. Francis of Assisi is referring to. I am hoping the everyone starts paying closer attention to him and his deceptions.

    Yes, I agree with you that the problems did not start with Bergoglio. But he is the end point, the culmination of all of the errors that traditional Catholics recognize. And the methodology of the Synodal Church is purely Antichristian.

    Why spend so much time talking about people and events that took place 60+ years ago? The prophesied Antichrist is here and in the news everyday. He's the guy who "looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon" (Apoc. 13:11). He's "the bishop dressed in white."


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #647 on: June 29, 2023, 06:01:52 PM »
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  • Angelus,

    I'm not weighing in on this, but as a casual observer, it doesn't appear to me that you're dealing with the language of:

    If the pope must be dead, how can a vacancy occur if the pope merely resigns? Your position makes the "if" in "if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff" an absurdity and worse, since you say it's the case that the See couldn't become "vacant" upon a papal resignation, does it not?


    Because a papal resignation creates a PARTIAL, but incomplete vacancy. The Roman Pontiff is the main part of the Apostolic See, and, so, when he resigns, it creates a partial vacancy. But, as the rest of the quote, says, that type of partial vacancy (one resulting from a resignation) does not annul the need to follow all of the procedures in the papal election law. In that case, the curial officials still act in the place of the Roman Pontiff (in a limited way) until the Pontiff dies. At that point, upon the retired Pontiff's death, the Curial officials lose their offices (except for Camerlengo) and an election is held to elect a new Roman Pontiff.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #648 on: June 29, 2023, 06:40:41 PM »
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  • I persist in the truth because Bergoglio is the non-canonically-elected destroyer that St. Francis of Assisi is referring to. I am hoping the everyone starts paying closer attention to him and his deceptions.

    Yes, I agree with you that the problems did not start with Bergoglio. But he is the end point, the culmination of all of the errors that traditional Catholics recognize. And the methodology of the Synodal Church is purely Antichristian.

    Why spend so much time talking about people and events that took place 60+ years ago? The prophesied Antichrist is here and in the news everyday. He's the guy who "looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon" (Apoc. 13:11). He's "the bishop dressed in white."

    Our Catholic Faith, or rather The Deposit of Faith, is based on Scripture and Tradition. It is not based on the private revelation of a saint, such as St. Francis.

    Regarding the issue of talking about things that took place 60+ years ago, well, it helps to know how the Modernists took over the Church, and what happened back then. If you want to focus solely on the supposed prophesied Antichrist, that's fine, but some of us do not see the problem in that light, even though it may be true. There isn't anything in Scripture or Tradition that points to this time as being the time of the antichrist.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #649 on: June 29, 2023, 07:52:20 PM »
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  • I persist in the truth because Bergoglio is the non-canonically-elected destroyer that St. Francis of Assisi is referring to. I am hoping the everyone starts paying closer attention to him and his deceptions.

    OK, fine, but you can come up with several more convincing reasons why Jorge was not canonically elected, such as the St. Gallen mafia problem (collusion) ... which Wojtyla declared would annul an election ... or making the case that Ratzinger was forced out of office or that he didn't properly resign.  Any one of those is more convincing that this notion that Jorge's election was invalid because they didn't have a funeral for Ratzinger.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #650 on: June 29, 2023, 08:08:25 PM »
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  • Quote
    Because a papal resignation creates a PARTIAL, but incomplete vacancy. The Roman Pontiff is the main part of the Apostolic See, and, so, when he resigns, it creates a partial vacancy. But, as the rest of the quote, says, that type of partial vacancy (one resulting from a resignation) does not annul the need to follow all of the procedures in the papal election law. In that case, the curial officials still act in the place of the Roman Pontiff (in a limited way) until the Pontiff dies. At that point, upon the retired Pontiff's death, the Curial officials lose their offices (except for Camerlengo) and an election is held to elect a new Roman Pontiff.
    You'd have to quote directly to prove this. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #651 on: June 29, 2023, 09:39:22 PM »
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  • You'd have to quote directly to prove this.

    Because a papal resignation creates a PARTIAL, but incomplete vacancy. The Roman Pontiff is the main part of the Apostolic See, and, so, when he resigns, it creates a partial vacancy. But, as the rest of the quote, says, that type of partial vacancy (one resulting from a resignation) does not annul the need to follow all of the procedures in the papal election law. In that case, the curial officials still act in the place of the Roman Pontiff (in a limited way) until the Pontiff dies. At that point, upon the retired Pontiff's death, the Curial officials lose their offices (except for Camerlengo) and an election is held to elect a new Roman Pontiff.

    Okay. I'll try to be more clear. It does take some unravelling.

    1. Universi Dominici Gregis is subtitled "On the Vacancy of the Apostolic See and the Election of the Roman Pontiff." So understanding precisely what constitutes "a vacancy in the Apostolic See" is critical. This is because the "election of the Roman Pontiff" cannot happen BEFORE there is a "lawful vacancy in the Apostolic See," that is, a "vacancy" as it is defined by the Law.


    2. By definition, an ecclesiastical office can either be occupied or vacant. Since the Apostolic See is composed of multiple offices (per Canon 361) it can be partially vacant or completely vacant:

    Canon 361 In this Code, the term Apostolic See or Holy See refers not only to the Roman Pontiff but also to the Secretariat of State, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, and other institutes of the Roman Curia, unless it is otherwise apparent from the nature of the matter or the context of the words.

    So with respect to the Apostolic See, a complete "vacancy" occurs only when all the offices that make up the Apostolic See are no longer legally occupied by "officials." If any of the offices of the Apostolic See remain occupied, it is by definition not vacant, in the strict sense of the word.


    3. How does the Apostolic See become vacant? Does it become vacant on the "resignation" of the Roman Pontiff. No, as UDG 14 and Pastor Bonus 6 state, the Curial offices of the Apostolic See only become vacant upon the death of the Roman Pontiff:

    UDG 14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus, at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office.

    PB Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Notice that there is no mention that upon a "resignation" the Curial offices "cease from their office." No, only upon "the death of the Pope" do those offices become vacant.


    4. So, when the Roman Pontiff "resigns" a kind of partial vacancy of the Apostolic See occurs. And the Cardinals must respect the "rights of the Apostolic See" even after the "valid resignation of the Pope," as we see in UDG 3:

    UDG 3. I further establish that the College of Cardinals may make no dispositions whatsoever concerning the rights of the Apostolic See and of the Roman Church, much less allow any of these rights to lapse, either directly or indirectly, even though it be to resolve disputes or to prosecute actions perpetrated against these same rights after the death or valid resignation of the Pope. All the Cardinals are obliged to defend these rights.

    The above states that the College of Cardinals are legally prevented from usurping the "rights of the Apostolic See" after "the valid resignation of the Pope." Think about that. This means that it is possible for there to be a situation in which the officials that make up the "Apostolic See" have "rights" and at the same time the Pope will have validly resigned.


    5. When the resigned Pontiff does finally die, the Apostolic See becomes legally and fully vacant because the Curial offices that make up the remainder of the Apostolic See are vacated (per UDG 14 and PB 6). Then the Camerlengo takes over to prepare for the election. This authority is given again in UDG 14 and PB 6:

    UDG 14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus,13 at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office. An exception is made for the Camerlengo of Holy Roman Church and the Major Penitentiary, who continue to exercise their ordinary functions, submitting to the College of Cardinals matters that would have had to be referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    PB Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.


    6. Chapter 3 of UDG deals with all the details of who is in charge of various things during a strict (complete) Vacancy in the Apostolic See. That chapter is too long to copy here. Just pull up UDG if you want to read all of it. But I will quote UDG 23 to contrast with UDG 3 (quoted above in my section 4) to illustrate the difference in the governing ability of Apostolic See when a Pope resigns versus when he dies:

    UDG 23. During the vacancy of the Apostolic See, all the civil power of the Supreme Pontiff concerning the government of Vatican City State belongs to the College of Cardinals, which however will be unable to issue decrees except in cases of urgent necessity and solely for the time in which the Holy See is vacant. Such decrees will be valid for the future only if the new Pope confirms them.

    Here you can see that after the Pope dies and a full vacancy of the Apostolic See occurs, the College of Cardinals no longer needs to respect "the rights of the Apostolic See." This is because the Apostolic See is truly vacant and only the College of Cardinals are available to govern the Vatican City State. But the College of Cardinals can only govern in a very limited way during the papal interregnum. During the resignation of the Pope (but before his death), the Curial offices of the Apostolic See continue to govern the Vatican City State with full control. After the death of a Pope, the College of Cardinals (not the Curial officials) govern the Vatican City State in a limited capacity until a new Apostolic See is occupied by a new Pope and his Curia.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #652 on: June 30, 2023, 08:23:23 AM »
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  • Quote
    I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.
    Posted for the 3rd time.  Codes of canon law recognize a lawful resignation.  Regs of conclave recognize canon law.  Ergo, a resignation is part of conclave law.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #653 on: June 30, 2023, 11:07:23 AM »
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  • Posted for the 3rd time.  Codes of canon law recognize a lawful resignation.  Regs of conclave recognize canon law.  Ergo, a resignation is part of conclave law.

    Yes, I have said it over and over again, a "lawful resignation of the Roman Pontiff" is possible in Church law, both Canon and election law. Why do you keep bringing that up? That is not the point I am trying to make. 

    You misunderstand what a "lawful resignation of the Roman Pontiff" means in terms of "the Vacancy of the Apostolic See." You seem to think that a "lawful resignation of the Roman Pontiff" means that the Apostolic See becomes completely "vacant" upon that simple fact of the papal "resignation" alone. You are incorrect about that assumption, as I demonstrated at length in my previous post. 

    Again, the "Apostolic See" is a legal entity composed of multiple "offices," including the Roman Pontiff as well as the Secretary of State and other Curial officials (again, see Canon 361). The "resignation of the Roman Pontiff" does not trigger the automatic resignation or loss of office of the other officials who make up the Apostolic See. The only thing that causes a vacancy in all of the offices of the Apostolic See is "the death of the Pope.

    Only when you understand that bolded sentence, can you understand that everything I have said about the invalidity of Bergoglio's election is true because the Apostolic See must be "vacant" (completely vacant) before any new papal election can occur. And the only way for all of the offices of the Apostolic See to be vacant (according to the laws that I quoted in my previous post) is that the Pope must die.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #654 on: June 30, 2023, 01:57:52 PM »
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  • Quote
    The "resignation of the Roman Pontiff" does not trigger the automatic resignation or loss of office of the other officials who make up the Apostolic See.
    You've yet to cite any regs, canon law or conclave law, to support this.



    Quote
    And the only way for all of the offices of the Apostolic See to be vacant (according to the laws that I quoted in my previous post) is that the Pope must die.
    Yeah, you're missing some laws/regs.


    Something which is this legally complex cannot be read in isolation.  There are often multiple "legal branches" which one must flip to, in order to understand exceptions (i.e. papal resignations).  You're simply reading the "main doc" dealing with a papal death, and you expect it to explain resignations.  It won't.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #655 on: June 30, 2023, 02:01:31 PM »
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  • Pope Celestine resigned in 1294.  He died 2 years later in 1296.  Pope Boniface VIII was elected also in 1294....long before Pope Celestine died.  


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #656 on: June 30, 2023, 02:39:46 PM »
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  • You've yet to cite any regs, canon law or conclave law, to support this.


    Yeah, you're missing some laws/regs.


    Something which is this legally complex cannot be read in isolation.  There are often multiple "legal branches" which one must flip to, in order to understand exceptions (i.e. papal resignations).  You're simply reading the "main doc" dealing with a papal death, and you expect it to explain resignations.  It won't.

    You say that I have not cited "any regs, canon law or conclave law." Yet, I wrote a very detailed post doing what you say I did not do. Here is the link to that post, in case you missed it. But here is the relevant part, again, to your question about the trigger for "a vacancy in the Apostolic See." I said the following:

    3. How does the Apostolic See become vacant? Does it become vacant on the "resignation" of the Roman Pontiff. No, as UDG 14 and Pastor Bonus 6 state, the Curial offices of the Apostolic See only become vacant upon the death of the Roman Pontiff:

    UDG 14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus, at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office.

    PB Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Notice that there is no mention that upon a "resignation," the Curial offices "cease from their office." No, only upon "the death of the Pope" do those offices become vacant.

    Here, I quoted two Apostolic Constitutions (Universi Dominici Gregis and Pastor Bonus). Both of them explain that only upon "the death of the Pope" will the "heads of the Discasteries of the Roman Curia- Cardinal Secretary of State and Cardinal Prefects..." cease "to exercise their office." These Curial Officials mentioned cannot "exercise their office" if the office is vacant, right? It would no longer be "their office" if it was vacant. Therefore, a papal resignation, which obviously can happen, does not trigger the loss of office (or "vacancy") in the offices of those Curial Officials. Only the "death of the Pope" triggers the vacancy in those Curial Offices. 

    And, as I stated in the same post, Canon 861 (1983 Code) defines the offices that legally make up the Apostolic See:

    Canon 361 In this Code, the term Apostolic See or Holy See refers not only to the Roman Pontiff but also to the Secretariat of State, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, and other institutes of the Roman Curia, unless it is otherwise apparent from the nature of the matter or the context of the words.

    So, when the Pope resigns, the Apostolic See is not yet vacant. It only become "lawfully vacant" upon "the death of the Pope." And a papal election cannot take place until AFTER the Apostolic See is "lawfully vacant." What part of what I have cited is still not clear to you?


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #657 on: June 30, 2023, 02:46:38 PM »
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  • You say that I have not cited "any regs, canon law or conclave law." Yet, I wrote a very detailed post doing what you say I did not do. Here is the link to that post, in case you missed it. But here is the relevant part, again, to your question about the trigger for "a vacancy in the Apostolic See." I said the following:

    3. How does the Apostolic See become vacant? Does it become vacant on the "resignation" of the Roman Pontiff. No, as UDG 14 and Pastor Bonus 6 state, the Curial offices of the Apostolic See only become vacant upon the death of the Roman Pontiff:

    UDG 14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus, at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office.

    PB Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Notice that there is no mention that upon a "resignation," the Curial offices "cease from their office." No, only upon "the death of the Pope" do those offices become vacant.

    Here, I quoted two Apostolic Constitutions (Universi Dominici Gregis and Pastor Bonus). Both of them explain that only upon "the death of the Pope" will the "heads of the Discasteries of the Roman Curia- Cardinal Secretary of State and Cardinal Prefects..." cease "to exercise their office." These Curial Officials mentioned cannot "exercise their office" if the office is vacant, right? It would no longer be "their office" if it was vacant. Therefore, a papal resignation, which obviously can happen, does not trigger the loss of office (or "vacancy") in the offices of those Curial Officials. Only the "death of the Pope" triggers the vacancy in those Curial Offices.

    And, as I stated in the same post, Canon 861 (1983 Code) defines the offices that legally make up the Apostolic See:

    Canon 361 In this Code, the term Apostolic See or Holy See refers not only to the Roman Pontiff but also to the Secretariat of State, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, and other institutes of the Roman Curia, unless it is otherwise apparent from the nature of the matter or the context of the words.

    So, when the Pope resigns, the Apostolic See is not yet vacant. It only become "lawfully vacant" upon "the death of the Pope." And a papal election cannot take place until AFTER the Apostolic See is "lawfully vacant." What part of what I have cited is still not clear to you?
    Do you also accept the 1983 code's teaching that non-catholics may receive communion or are you a hypocrite? The same teaching is also in V2, the CCC and a plethora of acts by your "popes."

    Can't wait to read your answer tomorrow.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #658 on: June 30, 2023, 03:32:21 PM »
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  • Do you also accept the 1983 code's teaching that non-catholics may receive communion or are you a hypocrite? The same teaching is also in V2, the CCC and a plethora of acts by your "popes."

    Can't wait to read your answer tomorrow.

    Do you mean Canon 912 (1983 Code)?

    Any baptized person not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion.
    Quilibet baptizatus, qui iure non prohibeatur, admitti potest et debet ad sacram communionem.

    Which is essentially identical to Canon 853 (1917 Code)?

    Any baptized person who is not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion.
    Quilibet baptizatus qui iure non prohibetur, admitti potest et debet ad sacram communionem.

    The only difference between the two formulations is the use of the subjunctive mood versus the indicative mood of the Latin verb prohibeo.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #659 on: June 30, 2023, 03:34:52 PM »
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  • Pope Celestine resigned in 1294.  He died 2 years later in 1296.  Pope Boniface VIII was elected also in 1294....long before Pope Celestine died.