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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55083 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #640 on: June 29, 2023, 04:53:54 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 29, 2023, 04:36:23 PM
:laugh1:  I think you're missing a few procedures.  I'm sure there's a sub-category of regs which deal with the unique situation of a resignation.


Didn't +Benedict also update the conclave laws, after JP2?  I'm sure the +Benedict "legal team" looked all this over.  It's not that complicated (i.e.  If a pope resigns, the requirements for a death/burial are ignored.  Move on to next procedure.)

No, I'm not "missing a few procedures." If they are not in the papal election law, which anyone who wants to know the truth can read for themselves, the procedures do not exist.

And yes, Benedict did update Universi Dominici Gregis on some small matters in Normas Nonnullas, promulgated on 22 February 2013. At the top of the Universi Dominici Gregis webpage, a very prominent link to Normas Nonnullas is also provided:

https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/motu_proprio/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20130222_normas-nonnullas.html

In Normas Nonnullas, some minor changes are made to the timing of events and voting procedures. There are no changes to the basic requirements of death, funeral and burial BEFORE the election of a new Pope takes place requirement.

The interesting thing is that you have no problem believing that the Vatican could have done any number of deceptive things since the 1960s. But, for what ever reason, you think it impossible that Bergoglio was not canonically-elected by the same people who have been perpetuating the other deceptions.

We are to trust the Cardinals when it comes to Bergoglio's election, even though it contradicts the law that we can read with our own eyes?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #641 on: June 29, 2023, 05:11:03 PM »
I can't believe that you persist in clinging to this nonsense.  Why don't you just argue that Ratzinger didn't properly resign like the other Bennyvacantists do?  Even they would repudiate this stuff.  It's just an absurd denial of common sense, common sense being that you only need funeral rites if a pope has died, not if he's resigned.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #642 on: June 29, 2023, 05:14:56 PM »
Found this in about 5 minutes...

+JP2's Universi Dominici Gregis
77.
I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.


+Benedict's Normas Nonnullas
No. 37.
"I furthermore decree that, from the moment when the Apostolic See is lawfully vacant, fifteen full days must elapse before the Conclave begins, in order to await those who are absent; nonetheless, the College of Cardinals is granted the faculty to move forward the start of the Conclave if it is clear that all the Cardinal electors are present; they can also defer, for serious reasons, the beginning of the election for a few days more. But when a maximum of twenty days have elapsed from the beginning of the vacancy of the See, all the Cardinal electors present are obliged to proceed to the election."
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Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #643 on: June 29, 2023, 05:27:05 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2023, 04:51:13 PM
If you look at the Latin, there's no definite article, so it could just as well read, "with the funeral rites of a deceased pope completed" ... along those lines, meaning, in the event of a deceased pope (vs. one who resigned), the funeral rites should be completed before the conclave.

You continue to misread the docuмent because you have an incorrect paradigm stuck in your head. Here is how 1983 Code of Canon Law defines "the Apostolic See":

THE ROMAN CURIA
Can. 361 In this Code, the term Apostolic See or Holy See refers not only to the Roman Pontiff but also to the Secretariat of State, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, and other institutes of the Roman Curia, unless it is otherwise apparent from the nature of the matter or the context of the words.

Please note that the Apostolic See does not become vacant when the Roman Pontiff resigns precisely because the Curial officials is still in place. So you might ask the question, when do those Curial officials (who are part of the Apostolic See) lose their office?

That question in answered in Universi Dominici Gregis itself:

14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus,13 at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office.

So, when the Roman Pontiff resigns, the Apostolic See is not completely vacant because the Curial Officials retain their offices UNTIL "the death of the Pope." Once the Pope dies, those Curial officials "cease to exercise their office." At that point, the Apostolic See is completely vacant and (after the funeral and burial of the Pope) a new papal election can be called. 

All of these things are very clear in the law if you will only read it carefully. Instead of jumping to conclusions that the docuмent means something it doesn't say, read what it does say and you will see that it all makes sense.

Bottom line: Bergoglio was not canonically-elected and this fact is objectively verifiable.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #644 on: June 29, 2023, 05:35:24 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 29, 2023, 05:14:56 PM
Found this in about 5 minutes...

+JP2's Universi Dominici Gregis
77.
I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.


+Benedict's Normas Nonnullas
No. 37.
"I furthermore decree that, from the moment when the Apostolic See is lawfully vacant, fifteen full days must elapse before the Conclave begins, in order to await those who are absent; nonetheless, the College of Cardinals is granted the faculty to move forward the start of the Conclave if it is clear that all the Cardinal electors are present; they can also defer, for serious reasons, the beginning of the election for a few days more. But when a maximum of twenty days have elapsed from the beginning of the vacancy of the See, all the Cardinal electors present are obliged to proceed to the election."

As I demonstrated in my last post, you have the wrong model in your head. You think that the Apostolic See is ONLY made up of the Roman Pontiff. You are incorrect in that assumption, according to 1983 Canon law: 

Can. 361 In this Code, the term Apostolic See or Holy See refers not only to the Roman Pontiff but also to the Secretariat of State, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, and other institutes of the Roman Curia, unless it is otherwise apparent from the nature of the matter or the context of the words.

The Apostolic See is not "lawfully vacant" until the death of the Roman Pontiff as UDG 14 states:

14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus, at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office.

Here is Pastor Bonus, 6:

Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

Search Pastor Bonus all you want. You will not find that upon "resignation" of the Pontiff that the Curial officials cease from their office. Only upon the death of the Pontiff do the curial officials lose their offices. Therefore, until the death of the Pontiff, the Apostolic See (which includes the Curia according to Canon 361) cannot possibly be lawfully vacant.

https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19880628_pastor-bonus.html

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