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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55083 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #625 on: June 29, 2023, 11:34:32 AM »
I think that JP2 and Jorge are too much losers to be Antichrist ... :laugh1: :laugh2:
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #626 on: June 29, 2023, 11:35:46 AM »
Quote from: Angelus on June 29, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
Bergoglio was not canonically-elected according Universi Dominici Gregis, the Church law governing papal elections. You can read the details at www.antipope.com, if you are interested.

I'm sorry, but this is getting really old ... pretending that the problems in the Church are due to Jorge, when they go all the way back to Roncalli, Montini, Wojtyla, and (yes) Ratzinger.  I'll give Luciani a pass since he wasn't there long enough to do much damage (not that he was a legitimate pope).
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #627 on: June 29, 2023, 11:38:04 AM »
Quote from: Angelus on June 29, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
You can read the details at www.antipope.com, if you are interested.

We can stop right there at the Major Premise, since it's demonstrably false.
Quote
Major Premise: 

A Roman Pontiff must die before a lawful election of a new Roman Pontiff can be held.

Even Wojtyla mentioned the resignation scenario.

This is the WORST argument I've ever seen for Bennyvacantism.

Clearly the intent of the passage about the funeral rites being complete means that they have to be completed in the case of a deceased pope, not in the case of resignation.  You're trying to be a literalist ... except there's one major problem.  Latin doesn't have a definite article, so the word "the" in "the deceased Pope" isn't actually there.  In Latin, "the" or "a" would be derived from context.  Latin could just as easily be read as "the funeral rites of A deceased pope" (and that is clearly the sense here, as Wojtyla mentioned the resignation scenario earlier in UDG).
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Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #628 on: June 29, 2023, 11:46:51 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2023, 11:38:04 AM
We can top right there at the Major Premise, since it's demonstrably false.
Even Wojtyla mentioned the resignation scenario.

It is demonstrably true that the law of papal elections, Universi Dominici Gregis, requires that the Pope be dead and buried before a new election can take place. 

Yes, it is possible in Canon Law for a Pope to "resign." But according to, Universi Dominici Gregis, the election for a new Pope must wait until AFTER the previous Pope dies.

In the interim (that is, after a resignation but before the death of the Pope), the Curial officials appointed by the Pope run the Church. But they cannot do anything that normally required the Pope's decision or signature. They can "keep the lights on." They cannot change discipline or doctrine in anyway. The Pope has resigned, so he is not doing anything.

All of that is in Universi Dominici Gregis, if you will just read it. I am not making it up.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #629 on: June 29, 2023, 11:55:43 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2023, 11:38:04 AM
We can stop right there at the Major Premise, since it's demonstrably false.
Even Wojtyla mentioned the resignation scenario.

This is the WORST argument I've ever seen for Bennyvacantism.

Clearly the intent of the passage about the funeral rites being complete means that they have to be completed in the case of a deceased pope, not in the case of resignation.  You're trying to be a literalist ... except there's one major problem.  Latin doesn't have a definite article, so the word "the" in "the deceased Pope" isn't actually there.  In Latin, "the" or "a" would be derived from context.  Latin could just as easily be read as "the funeral rites of A deceased pope" (and that is clearly the sense here, as Wojtyla mentioned the resignation scenario earlier in UDG).
From Universi Dominici Gregis:

77. I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

Get it? Even it there is "a resignation," all of "the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election" (such as death, funeral and burial) "must be observed in full."

And what happens if those "dispositions" are not "observed in full?" UDG tells us:

76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.

Get it? "Null and void." No "declaration" needed. Anyone with a eyes and a brain can recognize the truth and act as their God-given reason tells them to, i.e. that Bergoglio is a usurper with no authority over the spiritual lives of Catholics.
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