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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55295 times)

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Offline Meg

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #600 on: June 26, 2023, 11:57:45 AM »
It is good that you contrast the two elements that we need to consider:

Formal Pope = teaching/governing authority
Material Pope = physically holding onto the office

1983 Canon Law (1917 makes the same distinction using slightly different language):

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Can. 194

§1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself [automatically]:
1/ a person who has lost the clerical state;
2/ a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church;
3/ a cleric who has attempted marriage even if only civilly.

§2. The removal mentioned in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.

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So, the canon is clearly distinguishing between a de jure (formal) and a de facto (material) loss of office. The automatic/de jure/by-the-law-itself removal is what is referred to as the "formal Papacy." The declared/de facto/must-be-enforced-with-police removal is referred to as the "material Papacy."

A canonically-elected Pope loses his office (formally/de jure/by-the-law-itself) the moment he publicly defects from the Catholic Faith. No "declaration by a competent authority" is needed for anyone to recognize that fact and adjust their life accordingly. In that case, this canonically-elected Pope simply loses all of his authority and his dictates are binding on no one.

If that same canonically-elected Pope refuses to voluntarily vacate the physical office that he sits in, then his removal is only "enforced" by "the declaration of a competent authority." So a group of Cardinals would need to first recognize that 1) the former canonically-elected Pope has lost his office "formally." Then after that "formal loss" is acknowledged, those Cardinals can enforce the removal by calling in the Swiss Guard to physically kick the usurper to the curb.

P.S. Bergoglio is different from the papal claimants preceding him. He was not even canonically-elected, as you can read about at www.antipope.com. He was prophesied by St. Francis of Assisi: https://novusordowatch.org/saint-francis-assisi-prophecy-destroyer/. So none of the material/formal stuff is relevant to Bergoglio. He is simply a usurper and the Antichrist.

Your interpretations aren't binding on anyone. It's a matter of opinion.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #601 on: June 26, 2023, 07:48:56 PM »
Ladislaus, of all people, I wish you could see the value of distinctions and consistency.

The whole point of sedeprivationism, or Fr Chazal's impoundism is the same...which you often advocate...that the spiritual office is impacted immediately by heresy...but the temporal/govt office needs temporal/govt action by the hierarchy. 

The whole Arian crisis proves this dichotomy and separation.  As does canon law.  As do the changes to conclave election rules by Popes Pius XII and Pope St Pius X.

I wish Traditionalism could move on from Fr Cedeka and his extremism...

It is enough for all of us to agree on the fact that the V2 popes are moral heretics, which leaves open the question of legal status.  Which means the 'una cuм' issue = undecided and not important.

Micheal Matt incorrectly argues for a 'unite the tribes' Trad-ecuмenism.  Because such a unification is based on just the TLM, superficial, 'smells and bells'.

My prayer is that Trads can unite truly over sedeprivationism/Fr Chazalism...which means uniting over V2/new mass heresy...and leaving the 'una cuм' issue to the sideline...letting God work this out.  


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #602 on: June 26, 2023, 08:20:13 PM »
Ladislaus, of all people, I wish you could see the value of distinctions and consistency.

The whole point of sedeprivationism, or Fr Chazal's impoundism is the same...which you often advocate...that the spiritual office is impacted immediately by heresy...but the temporal/govt office needs temporal/govt action by the hierarchy. 

OK, if that's what you mean, I have no problem with it.  At the same time, it wouldn't be schismatic for someone to have a different opinion, where the "spiritual" office (formal aspect of office) would also cause the evacuation of the temporal office.  I think some the terms are a little bit confused, especially when you equate the power to govern somehow with the material aspect of the office.  If by "governing" you mean the ability to make appointments, etc., then I don't disagree.  If by governing you mean something closer to jurisdiction or the power to command, then I would have to disagree.  Perhaps that's the root of the misunderstanding, terms.

I hold that a Pope formally deprived of office can make appointments, but has no power / authority to teach or to command.  This Pope could also serve as a conduit for jurisdiction.  Thus, if a heretical non-Pope appoints a bishop, and the bishop himself has no impediments to exercising the office, the bishop would have ordinary jurisdiction and could formally exercise the office.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #603 on: June 26, 2023, 09:13:25 PM »

Quote
I hold that a Pope formally deprived of office can make appointments, but has no power / authority to teach or to command.  This Pope could also serve as a conduit for jurisdiction.  Thus, if a heretical non-Pope appoints a bishop, and the bishop himself has no impediments to exercising the office, the bishop would have ordinary jurisdiction and could formally exercise the office.
Thank you.  The 'hard line sedes' (i.e. non-una cuм) would disagree, but I agree that this is the only practical solution, and practical approach.

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #604 on: June 27, 2023, 05:01:45 PM »
OK, if that's what you mean, I have no problem with it.  At the same time, it wouldn't be schismatic for someone to have a different opinion, where the "spiritual" office (formal aspect of office) would also cause the evacuation of the temporal office.  I think some the terms are a little bit confused, especially when you equate the power to govern somehow with the material aspect of the office.  If by "governing" you mean the ability to make appointments, etc., then I don't disagree.  If by governing you mean something closer to jurisdiction or the power to command, then I would have to disagree.  Perhaps that's the root of the misunderstanding, terms.

I hold that a Pope formally deprived of office can make appointments, but has no power / authority to teach or to command.  This Pope could also serve as a conduit for jurisdiction.  Thus, if a heretical non-Pope appoints a bishop, and the bishop himself has no impediments to exercising the office, the bishop would have ordinary jurisdiction and could formally exercise the office.
Would you consider it heretical to say such a pope didn’t have authority to teach but that he still did have authority to command?  Why or why not?