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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55194 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #575 on: June 10, 2023, 06:51:15 PM »
That’s my point.  The only people who can figure this out are those in the Church.  I’m sick and tired of sedes using 3rd-grade logic to argue that laity and simple priests can kick someone out of office for heresy.  It’s causing untold division in Tradition and it’s irrationality leads to more and more chaos as the years go by. 

Then you have absolutely NO business judging that Vatican II has taught heresy and that the New Mass is not Catholic, but displeases God and harms souls.  None.  Zilch.  Zero.

If, however, you have judged these things to be true, then the men who promulgated them cannot be Popes, since it's absolutely impossible for legitimate Popes to teach grave error in an Ecuмenical Council or promulgate a bad Mass.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #576 on: June 10, 2023, 07:32:08 PM »
Then you have absolutely NO business judging that Vatican II has taught heresy and that the New Mass is not Catholic, but displeases God and harms souls.  None.  Zilch.  Zero.

If, however, you have judged these things to be true, then the men who promulgated them cannot be Popes, since it's absolutely impossible for legitimate Popes to teach grave error in an Ecuмenical Council or promulgate a bad Mass.

bravo!!!


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #577 on: June 10, 2023, 07:58:41 PM »

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You have no authority to judge that Vatican II taught heresy or that the Novus Ordo Mass isn't Catholic and pleasing to God.  This contradiction for some reason constantly escapes people.
:facepalm:

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In any case, however, there's no question of judging a cleric.  If Bergoglio is a heretic, he's outside the Church. 
Yes, spiritually speaking.  But arguably he retains his govt office.



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That's why Bellarmine teaches that it's possible to "judge" a Pope.  As per usual, though, you're confusing juridical judgment / sentence with making a judgment. 
No, i'm the one pointing out the difference between judging error vs judging according to canon law.  :confused:  



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I judge that Bergoglio is an enemy of Tradition.  That's a judgment.  But it obviously is no juridical judgment.
This is EXACTLY what i've been saying.


To "kick someone out of office" is a legal process.  Because it has to do with their human/govt office.  Which is a canon law process.  God has already judged them (spiritually) if they are guilty of heresy.  But no layman can kick anyone out of office; this is the Church's job, because it's a human office/process.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #578 on: June 10, 2023, 08:00:34 PM »

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Then you have absolutely NO business judging that Vatican II has taught heresy and that the New Mass is not Catholic, but displeases God and harms souls.  None.  Zilch.  Zero.

If, however, you have judged these things to be true, then the men who promulgated them cannot be Popes, since it's absolutely impossible for legitimate Popes to teach grave error in an Ecuмenical Council or promulgate a bad Mass.
:confused:  Saying someone retains their human/govt office, even when they've committed/espoused heresy is not a contradiction.  It's the basis for sedeprivationism/Fr Chazalism...which you say you agree with.

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #579 on: June 11, 2023, 06:45:02 PM »
That's not how it works.  I've never seen the Holy Ghost tell someone to pack up their bags and leave an building.  :laugh1:  And that's not in canon law either.
Yes, we can recognize that "it appears" the guy stole something illegally.  But...we don't know if he stole something because he was a former employee and the owner didn't pay him his final paycheck.  We don't know if the guy stole an apple because he was starving.  We don't know if he stole because the owner sold him a crappy car and won't give him his $ back. 


We don't know anything about the case.  We can only judge based on appearances (which is a waste of time), which is superficial and contrary to all civilized legal proceedings and against the virtue of justice.  It's the police/legal system which is responsible for investigating and finding fault.

Do you consider Nancy Peℓσѕι and Joe Biden to be Catholics in good standing?  Why or why not?
If Rome decided after Bergoglio's death that the next Pope was going to be a woman, would you recognize her as "pope?"  Why or why not?

The main point of my analogy is that the guy stole something and it was recognized as such, you even admitted it during your analogy extrapolating on the issue.  Your analogy only serves to get more details but it doesn't change what's already occurred.