Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism? (Read 55203 times)

MiracleOfTheSun · « **Reply #570 on:** June 10, 2023, 04:16:22 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 09, 2023, 08:01:27 PM

...I’m sick and tired of sedes using 3rd-grade logic to argue that laity and simple priests can kick someone out of office for heresy. It’s causing untold division in Tradition and it’s irrationality leads to more and more chaos as the years go by.

So sedevacantists are the reason for the 'untold division'?? Funny stuff. I thought the Resistance development was due to the SSPX meltdown in 2012 and the Fraternity of St. Peter (if that's Tradition) was created because of bishops being consecrated in the SSPX. Good to know sedes are responsible for all of that bedlam.

At least it's a Catholic argument to say Apostates can not be pontiff and the Church is without error in her laws and disciplines. What one does with that, of course, is up to them. Sedes work to preserve not demolish.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #571 on:** June 10, 2023, 06:14:11 PM »

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We don't kick them out, The Holy Ghost does, we just recognize that fact.

That's not how it works. I've never seen the Holy Ghost tell someone to pack up their bags and leave an building.

And that's not in canon law either.

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It would be like if we saw some guy blatantly stealing from a store and running out without paying, the store clerks upset that the guy didn't pay for it and saying such, and then being like "nope, we need to wait for the police to catch him and the judge to sentence him for theft before we can recognize that he stole something."

Yes, we can recognize that "it appears" the guy stole something illegally. But...we don't know if he stole something because he was a former employee and the owner didn't pay him his final paycheck. We don't know if the guy stole an apple because he was starving. We don't know if he stole because the owner sold him a crappy car and won't give him his $ back.

We don't know anything about the case. We can only judge based on appearances (which is a waste of time), which is superficial and contrary to all civilized legal proceedings and against the virtue of justice. It's the police/legal system which is responsible for investigating and finding fault.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #572 on:** June 10, 2023, 06:22:27 PM »

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So the PUBLIC SIN of heresy can be judged only by the Church? If this is what you are saying, then prove it. Show me where the Church teaches that only she can judge the PUBLIC SIN of heresy. And don't show me evidence from Canon Law. This is an issue regarding moral theology.

You can do whatever you want as a layman but you have no authority to judge any cleric. Canon law is for "canons" (i.e. churchmen). It is law for the church; and laymen are not part of the church (in the same sense as are religious persons).

The second reason your "judgement" means nothing is you have no authority over any other catholic, except your family. Your opinion, however educated and investigated it is, means zilch. You can't subject anyone to your opinion, because no other catholic has to pay attention to you, at all. It would be similar to a some new zealand citizen who files an appeal with the US Supreme Court...it means nothing. A non-citizen, non-lawyer, who files some proceeding with a foreign court....it goes directly into the garbage can. That person has no standing, no rights and no legal cause for the court (nor anyone else) to listen to anything they say.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #573 on:** June 10, 2023, 06:24:44 PM »

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So sedevacantists are the reason for the 'untold division'?? Funny stuff. I thought the Resistance development was due to the SSPX meltdown in 2012 and the Fraternity of St. Peter (if that's Tradition) was created because of bishops being consecrated in the SSPX. Good to know sedes are responsible for all of that bedlam.

Sedes are responsible for their fair share of division. I never said all. In the grand scheme of things, the new-sspx keeps going left and many sedes keep going right. Extremism on either end is bad.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #574 on:** June 10, 2023, 06:49:02 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 10, 2023, 06:22:27 PM

You can do whatever you want as a layman but you have no authority to judge any cleric.

You have no authority to judge that Vatican II taught heresy or that the Novus Ordo Mass isn't Catholic and pleasing to God. This contradiction for some reason constantly escapes people.

In any case, however, there's no question of judging a cleric. If Bergoglio is a heretic, he's outside the Church. That's why Bellarmine teaches that it's possible to "judge" a Pope. As per usual, though, you're confusing juridical judgment / sentence with making a judgment. I judge that Bergoglio is an enemy of Tradition. That's a judgment. But it obviously is no juridical judgment.

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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism? (Read 55203 times)

MiracleOfTheSun

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?

Pax Vobis

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?

Pax Vobis

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?

Pax Vobis

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?

Ladislaus

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?