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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41409 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #540 on: June 01, 2023, 10:23:21 PM »
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  • I guess I’m just a little skeptical that Karl rahner understood the fathers better than Lefebvre did

    Rahner was a Modernist, but he was no dummy.  Rahner would have loved to find support for broader EENS among the Fathers, but he had the intellectual honesty to admit that it wasn't there.  Of course, for Rahner, a Modernist, that's not a huge problem, because Modernists believe that dogma can evolve, and he would see this new V2 orientation as a favorable development and progress.

    But, in the comments he made about the V2 revolution on EENS, Rahner wasn't limiting himself to the Church Fathers, but to all subsequent Church teaching on EENS right up through Vatican II.  Rahner knew Vatican II very well and where the theological shifts were.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #541 on: June 01, 2023, 10:31:03 PM »
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  • Rahner in Theological Investigations:
    Quote
    This optimism concerning salvation [of non-Catholics] appears to me one of the most noteworthy results of the Second Vatican Council. For when we consider the officially received theology concerning all these questions, which was more or less traditional right down to the Second Vatican Council, we can only wonder how few controversies arose during the Council with regard to these assertions of optimism concerning salvation, and wonder too at how little opposition the conservative wing of the Council brought to bear on this point, how all this took place without any setting of the stage or any great stir even though this doctrine marked a far more decisive phase in the development of the Church’s conscious awareness of her faith than, for instance, the doctrine of collegiality in the Church, the relationship between Scripture and tradition, the acceptance of the new exegesis, etc.

    Rahner was right on the money, and I had been making this same observation for a long time before I found this quote.  Of course, he refers to theology being "more or less traditional right down to the Second Vatican Council."  In the years preceding the Council, it was mostly "less" traditional, and this explains why, to Rahner's amazement, "how little opposition the conservative wing of the Council [among the leaders of which was Archbishop Lefebvre] brought to bear on this point."  Rahner points out how this flew under the radar and didn't even create a stir among the conservatives.  That tells us something.  Father Feeney was right.

    We have the undeniably thrice-defined (and oft reaffirmed) dogma of EENS.  There's only one way to increase this "optimism concerning salvation".

    MAJOR:  There's no salvation outside the Church. [dogma]
    MINOR:  Heretics, schismatics, and even infidels can be saved.
    CONCLUSION:  Church can include heretics, schismatics, and even infidels.

    In order to extend salvation to non-Catholics, since no one can deny the dogma EENS, one must extend the Church to be inclusive of non-Catholics also.

    This is in fact none other than the subsistence ecclesiology of Vatican II.

    Then, by extension, how can these non-Catholics be really Catholics?  By subjectivizing faith, and reducing faith to good will, sincerity, intention to do God's will, etc.

    Religious Liberty then follows logically from this.

    MAJOR:  Men have a right to please God and to save their souls.
    MINOR:  Men please God and save their souls by following their consciences, even if they are erroneous.
    CONCLUSION:  Men have a right to follow their consciences, even if erroneous.

    If men save their souls even by following their false consciences and through false religions, then to hinder and to prevent them from doing so means hindering their salvation and their ability to please God.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #542 on: June 01, 2023, 10:45:58 PM »
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  • The proof is that Karl Rahner was undoubtedly, unabashedly and proudly a Modernist.  If he had found even one Church Father who agreed with his V2-mindset, he would've exploited that quote to the nth degree.  It would've been repeated by every Modernist til they were blue in the face.  But they never found anything...

    Rahner, Theological Investigations:
    Quote
    . . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #543 on: June 01, 2023, 10:54:53 PM »
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  • The proof is that Karl Rahner was undoubtedly, unabashedly and proudly a Modernist.  If he had found even one Church Father who agreed with his V2-mindset, he would've exploited that quote to the nth degree.  It would've been repeated by every Modernist til they were blue in the face.  But they never found anything...
    That would sorta undermine the principle of modernism to go with a direct quote tho 

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #544 on: June 01, 2023, 10:55:00 PM »
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  • I am not an expert, but I think that it is logical to imagine that the Modernists who created the Council and the post-Council Church were theologians of a very high caliber. You have to undestand something very well to be able to destroy it from the inside.

    People of an (apparently) lower intellect like Pope Paul VI of Pope Francis could never conceive such evil. They just go along with it.

    You need some kind of Jєωιѕн or Jєωιѕн inspired evil intelligence to be able to do such a thing.

    So, I think that it is very possible that Karl Rahner had a better grasp of theology in general then Abp. Lefebvre. he understood it better, and that is why he was so good at destroying it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #545 on: June 02, 2023, 07:49:32 AM »
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  • That would sorta undermine the principle of modernism to go with a direct quote tho

    Not at all.  I've known many Modernists who make citations and direct quotations all the time.  In fact, Rahner compiled the 1960 Enchiridion Symbolorum, which is little more than a huge volume of quotes from the Magisterium.  Now, he did sneak stuff in there that should have been there, but that's a separate issue.

    Rahner was a Modernist, but he was an extremely well-educated and bright individual ... no dummy by any stretch.

    Alas, having been a German, he was excessively enamored by the philosophy of Kant, and that led him down the unfortunate path to phenomenology, which is at the heart of Modernism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #546 on: June 02, 2023, 07:57:32 AM »
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  • Rahner was incredibly influential in laying out the new Vatican II ecclesiology.
    Quote
    In early 1962, with no prior warning, Rahner's superiors in the Society of Jesus told him that he was under Rome's pre-censorship, which meant that he could not publish or lecture without advance permission. The objections of the Roman authorities focused mainly on Rahner's views on the Eucharist and Mariology; however, the practical import of the pre-censorship decision was voided in November 1962 when, without any objection, John XXIII appointed Rahner a peritus (expert advisor) to the Second Vatican Council: Rahner had complete access to the council and numerous opportunities to share his thought with the participants. Rahner's influence at Vatican II was thus widespread, and he was subsequently chosen as one of seven theologians who would develop Lumen gentium, the dogmatic explication of the doctrine of the Church. The council's receptiveness towards other religious traditions may be linked to Rahner's notions of the renovation of the church, God's universal salvific revelation, and his desire to support and encourage the ecuмenical movement.

    Thus, Rahner knew full well that he was updating or changing the traditional definition of the Church, and that it was novel, a break with the "received theology" prior to Vatican II, and so he marveled that his new ecclesiology had flown under the radar at V2 and went unnoticed by and did not cause a stir among the conservatives at Vatican II.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #547 on: June 04, 2023, 04:42:48 PM »
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  • 1.  All of this is a legal act, done by legal authorities.  It can't be done by any layman.
    2.  First it must be proved that person A said heresy x.
    3.  Then it must be proved that heresy x was said 'publicly' (as canon law defines it, not according to Webster's dictionary).
    4.  Then it must be proved that person A knew, or should have known, that heresy x was in fact a heresy.
    5.  Then it must be determined if the 'public sin of heresy' was committed and the penalty, according to law.

    That I cannot determine by perceiving with my senses and apprehending with my intellect that the public sin of heresy has occurred and that I must wait for the Church to make that judgment is nonsense.  That's like saying I have to wait for the weatherman to tell me that it's raining outside before I can make the judgment that it is.  God gave me faculties to use them.   


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #548 on: June 04, 2023, 04:52:54 PM »
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  • I reject such because i'm legally allowed to, since they aren't binding under pain of sin for me to attend/accept.  Even +Benedict said in 2007's motu that Quo Primum was still legally in effect and this law a) binds me to the Old rite, b) prevents me from attending any other rite, and c) disallows any new rites.  No post-V2 law has ever made the new mass obligatory, in any degree.

    None of this gives you the right to outright reject Vatican II and the New Mass.  What you have done is claimed that they are not Catholic and therefore you reject them, but none of the conciliar popes have said that they are not Catholic.  On the contrary, they have insisted that they are Catholic.  Therefore, you have made a judgment in contradiction to the judgment of the conciliar popes.   

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #549 on: June 04, 2023, 05:02:48 PM »
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  • None of this gives you the right to outright reject Vatican II and the New Mass.

    :facepalm:  Jorge's Conciliar predecessors are guilty of the exact same heresies that Jorge holds.  For you to claim otherwise would be a rather pathetic act of intellectual dishonesty.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #550 on: June 04, 2023, 05:08:17 PM »
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  • None of this gives you the right to outright reject Vatican II…

    I outright reject V2, for the reasons adduced by +Vigano:

    It had the form of an ecuмenical council, but not the purpose or substance.

    V2 is not an ecuмenical council, regardless of all the bishops who attended.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #551 on: June 04, 2023, 05:09:20 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Jorge's Conciliar predecessors are guilty of the exact same heresies that Jorge holds.  For you to claim otherwise would be a rather pathetic act of intellectual dishonesty.

    You have missed my point.  My intent was to hold Pax Vobis' own argument (i.e., one has to wait for the Church to decide....) against him.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #552 on: June 04, 2023, 05:13:51 PM »
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  • I outright reject V2, for the reasons adduced by +Vigano:

    It had the form of an ecuмenical council, but not the purpose or substance.

    V2 is not an ecuмenical council, regardless of all the bishops who attended.

    Vatican II was not an Ecuмenical Council ... but only because a legitimate Pope has to preside over and approve an Ecuмenical Council.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #553 on: June 04, 2023, 05:26:50 PM »
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  • Vatican II was not an Ecuмenical Council ... but only because a legitimate Pope has to preside over and approve an Ecuмenical Council.

    Nope.

    V2 was a novelty; a pastoral council (a thing unheard of before).

    It neither condemned error nor defined dogma (the only things an ecuмenical council does).

    You just can’t get past your sede obsession to see things objectively.  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #554 on: June 04, 2023, 06:56:13 PM »
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  • Quote
    That I cannot determine by perceiving with my senses and apprehending with my intellect that the public sin of heresy has occurred and that I must wait for the Church to make that judgment is nonsense.  That's like saying I have to wait for the weatherman to tell me that it's raining outside before I can make the judgment that it is.  God gave me faculties to use them.   
    No, that’s a bad analogy.  It’s similar to a murder.  We (laity) can make the determination that someone died.  But we cannot make any decision (or if we do, it carries no legal significance) of who did the killing nor why.  That’s up to the proper authorities (ie Church) to bring Justice.