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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55190 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #530 on: June 01, 2023, 03:10:59 PM »
Just checking in, and see that despite the pep fest to dispel the doubts about the Feeneyite position which I have inculcated, 50 posts later, nobody is able to answer a very simple question:

Please cite Church teaching on either:

1) How is grace lost without grave sin

or

2) How those dying in the state of grace can be damned.

I'll check back in another 50 posts (i.e., 15 minutes).


How about you post something showing salvation can be had without the Catholic faith?

That is what this boils down to.

Anything else is a distraction.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #531 on: June 01, 2023, 03:19:44 PM »
I’ll give ladislaus a pass since he did at least go to seminary, but yeah, I honestly do sorta mentally filter out most other posters on here on this issue. Most of them do not even engage with what Justin martyr wrote. I’m not saying it can’t be done, but most of them do not even take the time or bother him. And most of them do indeed, blatantly engage in the private interpretation fest. I guess archbishop Lefevre was just an idiot who didn’t read the docuмents and some lay person online is going to set them right. Yeah right.

I just also consider it a massive waste of time to argue with anyone who says this, so I instead decided to stick with just analyzing the issues. I saw that the main comment that quoted me completely missed the point.

If Justin Martyr said that one can be saved without faith in Christ after the preaching of the Gospel, he's wrong. Nothing to engage. He's just another father with an opinion that is contrary to other fathers - with a bit more weight, since that appears to matter to you - e.g., St. Augustine.

The Athanasian Creed is infallible and states there cannot be salvation without the Catholic faith, which means conscious faith in Christ. Period.

Now if some theologians after the adoption of the Creed speculate other, and the Church doesn't bother to condemn them, that's simply a prudential judgment of the Church, perhaps (likely in light of history) very negligent - they are a minority not to be taken seriously, other fish to fry, we've already spoken on this, etc.

But the AC asserted eternal truth. Case closed. It didn't make waffles.


Offline Stubborn

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #532 on: June 01, 2023, 03:27:16 PM »
No, just more of your Protestant private interpretations to ignore.
No, it's not a private interpretation, we read it as it is written, it is therefore a literal interpretation, which is to say that for Catholics, it means exactly what it says.

So again, it is you who have it exactly backwards again because it is you with the Protestant interpretation by interpreting it to mean something other than what it says.

Here's you doing the exact same thing you rightfully accuse Lad of doing all the time. Now feel free to prove with Church teaching that the Scripture I posted means something other than what it says, or admit that those who are baptized unbelievers forfeit grace by the sin of unbelief - just exactly as Our Lord, in no uncertain terms, said.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #533 on: June 01, 2023, 04:16:45 PM »
If Justin Martyr said that one can be saved without faith in Christ after the preaching of the Gospel, he's wrong. Nothing to engage. He's just another father with an opinion that is contrary to other fathers - with a bit more weight, since that appears to matter to you - e.g., St. Augustine.

The Athanasian Creed is infallible and states there cannot be salvation without the Catholic faith, which means conscious faith in Christ. Period.

Now if some theologians after the adoption of the Creed speculate other, and the Church doesn't bother to condemn them, that's simply a prudential judgment of the Church, perhaps (likely in light of history) very negligent - they are a minority not to be taken seriously, other fish to fry, we've already spoken on this, etc.

But the AC asserted eternal truth. Case closed. It didn't make waffles.


Agreed.  If my recollection is correct, however, St. Justin Marty was referring to the pre-Christian "noble pagan," the likes of Aristotle and others they might have had in mind, wondering how the possibility for salvation could have been available outside the narrow confines of Israel.

In addition to the Athanasian Creed, I started a thread one time replete with citations from the Church Fathers who all said the same thing, the since the promulgation of the Gospel, salvation was not possible without explicit faith in Christ.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #534 on: June 01, 2023, 04:27:39 PM »
Just checking in, and see that despite the pep fest to dispel the doubts about the Feeneyite position which I have inculcated, 50 posts later, nobody is able to answer a very simple question:

Please cite Church teaching on either:

1) How is grace lost without grave sin

or

2) How those dying in the state of grace can be damned.

I'll check back in another 50 posts (i.e., 15 minutes).

Throwing another one of your puerile trantrums, I see.

Evidently you are incapable of following simple logic, and you have dodged the very simple question that's been put before you.  You refuse to answer it because it's absolutely fatal to your position.  You play this game constantly, where you beg the question and demand proof, and assume that your position is the correct one ... without having proved your own position.

Where is your citation from the Magisterium that the grace infused in an infant at Baptism could only be lost by mortal sin even if the individual reaches the age of reason without the dispositions necessary for adults to be justified by the Sacrament?  You'll find none.  So from the direct Magisterial perspective, this is a wash.  But that doesn't stopping you from begging the question and then insisting that you're right unless someone can disprove it, even though you've never proven your own position.

Father Mueller explained the situation very eloquently.  But you play these games and throw your usual tantrum.

Of course, after going-on-double-digit requests you have still refused to answer this very basic question.  Let me formulate it so that you can just type yes or no.  I'll even put it in bold for you so you don't forget.

If an infant is baptized, but is raised as an atheist, and through no fault of his own and having committed no mortal sin, arrives at the age of reason as an atheist, and then dies in that state, does he remain in a state of sanctifying grace and is saved?  YES OR NO?