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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41449 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #480 on: May 31, 2023, 04:59:06 PM »
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  • So we return yet again to the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?

    Sean,

    I think Ladislaus was correct about personal faith in Christ being necessary upon reaching maturity.

    It's not a question of forfeit, but rather God willing salvation be through faith in His Son, for all capable of knowing - I do not mean capable by or under external circuмstance, but capable of having the "hardware" or "software" required to will and know.

    A baptized person, upon  reaching maturity, will be confronted with moral choices. In the hypothetical case that a person does not sin before the approach of death, before departing this earth God will provide such a person with knowledge of, and faith in, Christ - either through provision of a preacher, or by internal inspiration of the Holy Ghost. That is St. Thomas's sound teaching.

    Of course, if a person sins at some point after reaching maturity, faith in Christ, with repentance, is the sine qua non of dying in a state of grace.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #481 on: May 31, 2023, 05:01:24 PM »
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  • I reject the notion that one has to commit an active sin against the faith to lose supernatural faith.  When an infant is baptized, that's a special case where the supernatural virtue of faith is merely infused.  There can be no merely-infused supernatural virtue of faith in adults, i.e. those who have the use of reason.  Consequently, when a child reaches the use of reason, if the supernatural faith isn't confirmed with actual acts of faith, the virtue is lost, and without supernatural faith there can be no supernatural charity.  To think that someone can grow up, reach the age of reason, and then be an atheist, say having been raised as such, and the stay in a state of persevering in supernatural faith.

    Agreed. 

    Was there an eclipse or some extraordinary phenomenon afoot in the heavens?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #482 on: May 31, 2023, 05:07:22 PM »
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  • Agreed.

    Was there an eclipse or some extraordinary phenomenon afoot in the heavens?


    Perhaps.  It's always good when we can agree on something.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #483 on: May 31, 2023, 05:13:12 PM »
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  • Sean,

    I think Ladislaus was correct about personal faith in Christ being necessary upon reaching maturity.

    It's not a question of forfeit, but rather God willing salvation be through faith in His Son, for all capable of knowing - I do not mean capable by or under external circuмstance, but capable of having the "hardware" or "software" required to will and know.

    A baptized person, upon  reaching maturity, will be confronted with moral choices. In the hypothetical case that a person does not sin before the approach of death, before departing this earth God will provide such a person with knowledge of, and faith in, Christ - either through provision of a preacher, or by internal inspiration of the Holy Ghost. That is St. Thomas's sound teaching.

    Of course, if a person sins at some point after reaching maturity, faith in Christ, with repentance, is the sine qua non of dying in a state of grace.

    DR


    DR-

    Happy to hear your response to this question, if you have one:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #484 on: May 31, 2023, 05:32:57 PM »
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  • Sean, you keep going back to the notion that a sin has to be committed against faith to lose supernatural faith.  Normally yes, for an adult, but I hold infants to be a special case.

    Even the "Rewarder God" folks held that explicit faith in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked is a sine qua non for supernatural faith ... for adults.  I hold, with St. Thomas and others, that explicit knowledge of Christ and the Holy Trinity are also essential.  In fact, this was held unanimously until the discovery of the New World, when a Franciscan and some Jesuits floated Rewarder God theory in response to finding all those unevangelized masses.  In any case, until Bergoglio said it some years ago, no Catholic ever entertained the notion that an atheist, someone who had explicit faith in nothing, could be saved.  So, if the infant grows up to acquire the use of reason but does not have any explicit belief in anything, that supernatural virtue of faith fades away, like the seed sown on the rocky ground where it has nothing to take root in.  As to why God may have allowed this, we can only speculate, but St. Thomas holds that this ignorance, if invincible, is itself not a sin, but God would allow this to happen on account of other sins.  It can also be God's Mercy, as perhaps He knows that the person would end up rejecting the faith and therefore meriting a worse eternal fate.  We don't know.

    Based on how you're asking the question, in your scenario, let's imagine an infant who's secretly baptized by some overzealous individual and ends up being raised by atheists.  He reaches the age of reason, and then dies at the age of 15 without having actively rejected the faith or committed any other grave sin.  Would that person be saved?  To say yes would be to say that atheists can be saved without explicit faith in anything ... which no Catholic thinker or theologian has ever held prior to Bergoglio's utterance.  You're saying that individuals can have some infused supernatural virtue of faith without any knowledge or awareness of it.  You'd basically be promoting a variation of Rahner's Anonymous Christian theory and agreeing with Bergoglio that atheists can be saved.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #485 on: May 31, 2023, 06:01:30 PM »
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  • Sean, you keep going back to the notion that a sin has to be committed against faith to lose supernatural faith.  Normally yes, for an adult, but I hold infants to be a special case.

    Even the "Rewarder God" folks held that explicit faith in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked is a sine qua non for supernatural faith ... for adults.  I hold, with St. Thomas and others, that explicit knowledge of Christ and the Holy Trinity are also essential.  In fact, this was held unanimously until the discovery of the New World, when a Franciscan and some Jesuits floated Rewarder God theory in response to finding all those unevangelized masses.  In any case, until Bergoglio said it some years ago, no Catholic ever entertained the notion that an atheist, someone who had explicit faith in nothing, could be saved.  So, if the infant grows up to acquire the use of reason but does not have any explicit belief in anything, that supernatural virtue of faith fades away, like the seed sown on the rocky ground where it has nothing to take root in.  As to why God may have allowed this, we can only speculate, but St. Thomas holds that this ignorance, if invincible, is itself not a sin, but God would allow this to happen on account of other sins.  It can also be God's Mercy, as perhaps He knows that the person would end up rejecting the faith and therefore meriting a worse eternal fate.  We don't know.

    Based on how you're asking the question, in your scenario, let's imagine an infant who's secretly baptized by some overzealous individual and ends up being raised by atheists.  He reaches the age of reason, and then dies at the age of 15 without having actively rejected the faith or committed any other grave sin.  Would that person be saved?  To say yes would be to say that atheists can be saved without explicit faith in anything ... which no Catholic thinker or theologian has ever held prior to Bergoglio's utterance.  You're saying that individuals can have some infused supernatural virtue of faith without any knowledge or awareness of it.  You'd basically be promoting a variation of Rahner's Anonymous Christian theory and agreeing with Bergoglio that atheists can be saved.

    Lad-

    please explain how grace is lost without sin (or conversely, how those in the state of grace are damned).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #486 on: May 31, 2023, 06:43:41 PM »
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  • Quote
    please explain how grace is lost without sin (or conversely, how those in the state of grace are damned).
    If you want to have an intelligent conversation then please provide more details.  Your generic scenarios help no one. 

    p.s.  A baptized catholic (even if brought up as atheist) who doesn't act like one (i.e. follow church law, receive communion, go to confession, etc) commits many sins of omission.  If such a person reaches the age of reason and doesn't follow God's promptings to search for Truth, and doesn't go to church (at least), they sin in all manner of ways against the virtue of religion.  Then, they won't last long in a state of grace.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #487 on: May 31, 2023, 07:53:56 PM »
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  • Lad-

    please explain how grace is lost without sin (or conversely, how those in the state of grace are damned).

    It was explain in the paragraphs to which you are responding, but you're fixated on your own imagined paradigm so that my explanation simply didn't register.  If I responded again, I would rewrite the above.

    So in your opinion, someone can be saved as an atheist if they were baptized as an infant and then didn't commit an active sin against the faith after reaching the age of reason?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #488 on: May 31, 2023, 07:58:54 PM »
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  • It was explain in the paragraphs to which you are responding, but you're fixated on your own imagined paradigm so that my explanation simply didn't register.  If I responded again, I would rewrite the above.

    So in your opinion, someone can be saved as an atheist if they were baptized as an infant and then didn't commit an active sin against the faith after reaching the age of reason?

    Lad,

    In your opinion, can the state of grace be lost without mortal sin?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #489 on: May 31, 2023, 09:51:09 PM »
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  • Lad,

    In your opinion, can the state of grace be lost without mortal sin?

    I've already answered this question.  Did you not read what I wrote?  Yes, it can be, in the unique case of an infant where the supernatural virtue of faith is merely infused.  Then without supernatural faith, there can be no supernatural virtue.  You're framing your question from the mindset of a normal adult in a state of sanctifying grace.  That is completely different from the state of an infant who has merely infused supernatural virtues.  You continue to be fixated on this notion because your mind can't grasp anything outside the normal paradigm for adults.

    Now answer my question about whether you think an atheist in the above scenario can be saved.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #490 on: May 31, 2023, 10:16:11 PM »
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  • I've already answered this question.  Did you not read what I wrote?  Yes, it can be, in the unique case of an infant where the supernatural virtue of faith is merely infused.  Then without supernatural faith, there can be no supernatural virtue.  You're framing your question from the mindset of a normal adult in a state of sanctifying grace.  That is completely different from the state of an infant who has merely infused supernatural virtues.  You continue to be fixated on this notion because your mind can't grasp anything outside the normal paradigm for adults.

    Now answer my question about whether you think an atheist in the above scenario can be saved.

    So your answer is a simple “yes,” correct?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #491 on: June 01, 2023, 06:06:34 AM »
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  • I've already answered this question.  Did you not read what I wrote?  Yes, it can be, in the unique case of an infant where the supernatural virtue of faith is merely infused.  Then without supernatural faith, there can be no supernatural virtue.  You're framing your question from the mindset of a normal adult in a state of sanctifying grace.  That is completely different from the state of an infant who has merely infused supernatural virtues.  You continue to be fixated on this notion because your mind can't grasp anything outside the normal paradigm for adults.

    Now answer my question about whether you think an atheist in the above scenario can be saved.
    This is really twisted stuff, Ladislaus, stop trying to be a theologian.
    No one who has reached the age of reason is in a moral vacuum. Every act is either virtuous or sinful. If it is gravely sinful, grace is lost. This child, through baptism, has grace. If he does not commit mortal sin, the grace is never lost.
    It is right there in the very first book of Holy Scripture: "Before man is good and evil. That which he chooses shall be given him".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #492 on: June 01, 2023, 06:49:26 AM »
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  • This is really twisted stuff, Ladislaus, stop trying to be a theologian.

    Give us a break.  Many people post their opinions about theological subjects here, and that doesn't make them a theologian.  I fact, by calling it twisted, you're "trying to be a theologian".  That's called hypocrisy.  But your characterization of it as twisted merely shows your ignorance.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #493 on: June 01, 2023, 06:53:55 AM »
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  • No one who has reached the age of reason is in a moral vacuum. Every act is either virtuous or sinful. If it is gravely sinful, grace is lost. This child, through baptism, has grace. If he does not commit mortal sin, the grace is never lost.
    It is right there in the very first book of Holy Scripture: "Before man is good and evil. That which he chooses shall be given him".

    See here you have yourself hypocritically acting like a theologian ... much more so than I ever was.  I qualified my option above with phrases like "I hold ..." where as you bloviate as if this were fact.

    Until the recent ramblings of Bergoglio, it was universally held by all theologians that someone without explicit faith in something, at LEAST in a Rewarder/Punisher God ... and more commonly in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation ... cannot be saved.  Period.

    Based on your thinking, however, an atheist could be saved in the hypothetical scenario where ...

    1) he was baptized as an infant
    2) was raised as an atheist and reaches the age of reason as an athiest
    3) commits no mortal sin

    How do you explain, then, that this atheist can be saved ... contrary to all Catholic theology to the contrary?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #494 on: June 01, 2023, 07:00:51 AM »
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  • So your answer is a simple “yes,” correct?

    Yes, as I have repeated several times.  How about your answer to how the atheist in the above hypothetical scenario can be saved?  No Catholic theologian has ever held that an atheist can be saved, requiring at least a minimum of explicit faith in the Rewarder/Punisher God.

    For infants, in a special case, this supernatural virtue is infused in the soul, along with supernatural charity.  But for adults it does not work this way.  If an atheist adult were baptized, say unwillingly, would he have the supernatural virtue of faith or charity?  Of course not.  If he did not assent to the truths of the faith, and, in short, have all the dispositions necessary, as described by the Council of Trent, while he would receive the Baptismal character, he would not receive supernatural faith or charity.  That's because FOR ADULTS a cooperation of the will is required.

    Infants are dispensed from this obligation, since they cannot actively cooperate with their will and their intellect.  But once they reach the age of reason, they are then required to cooperate.  If they do not cooperate, then they are in the same state as the adult above who was baptized without the proper dispositions.

    Virtues are also known as habits.  Supernatural faith and supernatural charity are habits, and they are potencies.  Upon reaching the age of reason, however, what was a mere potency in the infant has to be "activated" and cooperated with, or the potency fades away, just as any habit or virtue fades away if it's not exercised.  This is true of the natural "virtues" as well.  If they are not exercised, the potency eventually fades, and the virtue dies.  Virtues need to be exercised to be kept alive.