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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41388 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #465 on: May 31, 2023, 03:00:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on May 31, 2023, 02:58:46 PM
    His Petulance strikes again.

    Thank you for this profound contribution.  
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #466 on: May 31, 2023, 03:00:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 02:56:32 PM
    You aren’t answering the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    Bump.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #467 on: May 31, 2023, 03:02:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 03:00:03 PM
    Thank you for this profound contribution. 

    Indeed.  You are quite welcome.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #468 on: May 31, 2023, 03:03:56 PM »
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    • Your Petulance,

    Are you the one down-thumbing the last couple of posts?
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #469 on: May 31, 2023, 03:25:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 02:48:45 PM
    No, you and Pax are the only morons.

    Still waiting for an asnwer to this question:

    If a 6 year-old schismatic in the state of grace is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    There are no schismatics in the state of grace, cf. Unam Sanctam.

    Still waiting for an answer to a yes or no question, I've responded to your question with a reasonable answer you've ignore.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #470 on: May 31, 2023, 03:27:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on May 31, 2023, 03:25:45 PM
    There are no schismatics in the state of grace, cf. Unam Sanctam.

    You aren’t answering the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #471 on: May 31, 2023, 03:33:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 03:27:05 PM
    You aren’t answering the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    I've answered already what my opinion is. I think there are only two possible options.

    The first is the opinion of St. Thomas who says they will commit some sin and lose the state of grace because of it or if they don't they will be led into the Church by God.

    The other option is that as soon as the age of reason is reached if one does not hold the Catholic faith he loses the state of grace and ceases to be a member of the Church.

    I don't really care about hypothetical scenarios and how exactly things work out. I care about the dogmas of the faith which must be known and believed, such as the dogma that the Carholic faith is necessary for salvation.

    So, are there certain mysteries which are necessary to be known by a necessity of means by those possessed of reason in order to be numbered among the elect?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #472 on: May 31, 2023, 03:47:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on May 31, 2023, 03:33:59 PM
    The other option is that as soon as the age of reason is reached if one does not hold the Catholic faith he loses the state of grace and ceases to be a member of the Church.

    And I'm asking you to explain how this is even possible, if one is invincibly ignorant (i.e., can't commit a mortal sin to fall from said grace).


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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #473 on: May 31, 2023, 04:06:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 03:47:44 PM
    And I'm asking you to explain how this is even possible, if one is invincibly ignorant (i.e., can't commit a mortal sin to fall from said grace).
    I reject the premise that one can't sin through ignorance as the condemned statement of Abelard proves and I also would like to point out that there are many ways to commit mortal sin.

    The first option is definitely an acceptable position even if the second is incorrect, which is possible.

    What isn't possible is for a non-Catholic to go to heaven because every human creature by absolute necessity must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, possess the Catholic faith and be inside the Church.

    I'm looking forward to seeing your answer tomorrow.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #474 on: May 31, 2023, 04:11:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on May 31, 2023, 04:06:28 PM
    I reject the premise that one can't sin through ignorance as the condemned statement of Abelard proves and I also would like to point out that there are many ways to commit mortal sin.

    The first option is definitely an acceptable position even if the second is incorrect, which is possible.

    What isn't possible is for a non-Catholic to go to heaven because every human creature by absolute necessity must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, possess the Catholic faith and be inside the Church.

    I'm looking forward to seeing your answer tomorrow.

    Abelard did not specify mortal sin, which is impossible in a state of ignorance (either that, or all the manuals have been wrong about how one commits a mortal sin for a millenium, and we're all damned).  Venial sin does not rob the soul of grace, but that is all one ignorant can do.  So the Abelard quote does not help you, as previously mentioned.

    So we return yet again to the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #475 on: May 31, 2023, 04:16:59 PM »
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    • I just thought of an interesting example to prove my point. Do you believe that an atheist can be in a state of grace?
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    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #476 on: May 31, 2023, 04:20:55 PM »
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    •  "What is the means by which grace is forfeited?"  We have only known one means by which grace is forfeited, and this is the will.  Heresy is not in the intellect, which knows, but in the will, which moves the intellect to assent.  It seems that those who are infatuated with invincible ignorance place salvation in the intellect, where it cannot be, rather than in the will, where it must be. 

    When Sean speaks about the "six-year-old schismatic in the state of grace," the question must asked, is he able to exercise his reason, and assent to, or reject a truth of faith?  If he is able to reason, and rejects a truth, then he is a schismatic; if he is not able to reason, he cannot reject a truth nor affirm it, and therefore is fully Catholic, as fully Catholic as the boy brought up in a traditional chapel.  

    St. Therese the Little Flower tells us herself that she "denied Our Lord nothing from the age of three."  If it is true that the Little Flower had the use of reason at this age, then she was capable of being a formal heretic at this age.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #477 on: May 31, 2023, 04:23:10 PM »
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    • I reject the notion that one has to commit an active sin against the faith to lose supernatural faith.  When an infant is baptized, that's a special case where the supernatural virtue of faith is merely infused.  There can be no merely-infused supernatural virtue of faith in adults, i.e. those who have the use of reason.  Consequently, when a child reaches the use of reason, if the supernatural faith isn't confirmed with actual acts of faith, the virtue is lost, and without supernatural faith there can be no supernatural charity.  To think that someone can grow up, reach the age of reason, and then be an atheist, say having been raised as such, and the stay in a state of persevering in supernatural faith.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #478 on: May 31, 2023, 04:26:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 31, 2023, 04:23:10 PM
    I reject the notion that one has to commit an active sin against the faith to lose supernatural faith.  When an infant is baptized, that's a special case where the supernatural virtue of faith is merely infused.  There can be no merely-infused supernatural virtue of faith in adults, i.e. those who have the use of reason.  Consequently, when a child reaches the use of reason, if the supernatural faith isn't confirmed with actual acts of faith, the virtue is lost, and without supernatural faith there can be no supernatural charity.  To think that someone can grow up, reach the age of reason, and then be an atheist, say having been raised as such, and the stay in a state of persevering in supernatural faith.
    So we return yet again to the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #479 on: May 31, 2023, 04:51:39 PM »
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    • Quote
    So we return yet again to the question:
    :laugh2:  You mean question #5, since you've modified it multiple times...


    Quote
    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    Typically, one who is invincibly ignorant of the Faith forfeits grace through sins against the natural law.  But they can repent and still find the Truth, if they are of good will.


    Also, one who is invincibly ignorant of the Faith still has Original Sin on his soul, so unless baptized (by the sacrament of water) he cannot gain heaven.  Because Trent tells us it is impossible to please God without supernatural faith, which can only be gotten by the sacrament of baptism.

    If one is unbaptized, yet still keeps the 10 commandments (as some american indians did), if they die before baptism, they would go to Limbo (not be damned).
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