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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41386 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #450 on: May 31, 2023, 01:12:49 PM »
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    • Still waiting for an asnwer to this question:

    If a 6 year-old schismatic in the state of grace is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #451 on: May 31, 2023, 01:13:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 31, 2023, 01:09:58 PM
    No, invincible ignorance implies that the person “does not deserve” to be ignorant and they are “sincerely good-willed.”

    The quotes you posted by St Thomas explain that those who are ignorant of the Faith, are so because of sin. 


    Do I really need to quote it again?




    Quote
    Consequently ignorance of such like things is called "invincible," because it cannot be overcome by study.



    It's invincible precisely because it's not within their own power to overcome such ignorance.

    Who shall furnish such souls with what they themselves cannot overcome?

    God.




    Quote
    we must most certainly hold that God would . . .


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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #452 on: May 31, 2023, 01:20:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 01:12:49 PM
    Still waiting for an asnwer to this question:

    If a 6 year-old schismatic in the state of grace is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?


    At what point do you think acts of faith, hope, and charity are obliging on a soul?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #453 on: May 31, 2023, 01:21:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 01:12:49 PM
    Still waiting for an asnwer to this question:

    If a 6 year-old schismatic in the state of grace is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    As St. Thomas says, if he is incuplably ignorant he will receive the Gospel, if his ignorance is culpable he will be damned for his other sins.

    It comes down to belief in Divine Providence. You actually believe that someone who is lives without mortal sin, sincerely seeking the truth would be denied it by God? If so, that's blasphemous.

    Now please answer is belief in the Trinity and Incarnation obligatory pn all above the age of reason, by a necessity of means, for salvation?
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #454 on: May 31, 2023, 01:49:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 01:12:49 PM
    Still waiting for an asnwer to this question:

    If a 6 year-old schismatic in the state of grace is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    I always thought of it as Protestant children who are baptized correctly are technically Catholics unless/until they deny the Catholic Faith by attending non-Catholic worship or stubbornly holding to a heresy which the Church has condemned.  

    That being said...  A Protestant child would not have access to True Sacraments continually to cleanse his soul or give him more grace.  So, even though it might be possible for such a person to get to heaven if they never rejected the Church, it would be very unlikely.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #455 on: May 31, 2023, 01:51:31 PM »
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    • The Church teaches the Catholic Faith is necessary for salvation, how hard is it to believe that all the predestinate shall die with the Catholic Faith?

    God will see to it His predestinate have the Catholic Faith one way or another, before they die.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #456 on: May 31, 2023, 01:51:43 PM »
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    It's invincible precisely because it's not within their own power to overcome such ignorance.
    The issue is that St Thomas' definition has been corrupted and the "normal" definition today is different.  I was responding to the typical use; but your quote of St Thomas is correct.  Thanks for posting.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #457 on: May 31, 2023, 01:53:12 PM »
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    If a 6 year-old schismatic in the state of grace is invincibly ignorant
    This is an oxymoronic statement.  By definition, a baptized person of the age of reason, has received supernatural faith, hope and charity.  They are not, and cannot be invincibly ignorant.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #458 on: May 31, 2023, 02:14:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 31, 2023, 01:53:12 PM
    This is an oxymoronic statement.  By definition, a baptized person of the age of reason, has received supernatural faith, hope and charity.  They are not, and cannot be invincibly ignorant.

    We are not speaking of a "baptized person of the age of reason," but of a baptized infant reaching the age of reason.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #459 on: May 31, 2023, 02:15:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 31, 2023, 01:53:12 PM
    This is an oxymoronic statement.  By definition, a baptized person of the age of reason, has received supernatural faith, hope and charity.  They are not, and cannot be invincibly ignorant.

    Nor can a 6-year-old be a "schismatic".  You have to adhere to a non-Catholic sect in order to be a schismatic.

    So that statement contained 2 oxymorons.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #460 on: May 31, 2023, 02:44:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on May 31, 2023, 01:21:40 PM
    As St. Thomas says, if he is incuplably ignorant he will receive the Gospel, if his ignorance is culpable he will be damned for his other sins.

    It comes down to belief in Divine Providence. You actually believe that someone who is lives without mortal sin, sincerely seeking the truth would be denied it by God? If so, that's blasphemous.

    Now please answer is belief in the Trinity and Incarnation obligatory pn all above the age of reason, by a necessity of means, for salvation?
    Still waiting.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #461 on: May 31, 2023, 02:47:33 PM »
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    • Quote
    but of a baptized infant reaching the age of reason.
    a 3rd oxymoronic statement.  A person who has reached the age of reason is not an infant.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #462 on: May 31, 2023, 02:48:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 31, 2023, 02:15:29 PM
    Nor can a 6-year-old be a "schismatic".  You have to adhere to a non-Catholic sect in order to be a schismatic.

    So that statement contained 2 oxymorons.

    No, you and Pax are the only morons.

    Still waiting for an asnwer to this question:

    If a 6 year-old schismatic in the state of grace is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #463 on: May 31, 2023, 02:56:32 PM »
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    • You aren’t answering the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #464 on: May 31, 2023, 02:58:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 02:48:45 PM
    No, you and Pax are the only morons.

    His Petulance strikes again. 
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