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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41940 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #435 on: May 31, 2023, 11:53:43 AM »
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  • God forbid the SSPX ever does.

    There’s evidence to support the suspicion they already did.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #436 on: May 31, 2023, 11:55:34 AM »
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  • Yes, very interesting. The sedevacantists (not all of them, however, but generally) claim that if we believe that the Franics is the pope, then we cannot resist him. The ralliers believe the same - that we (the SSPX and Resistance) must be in full communion with the Pope and Rome. It's basically the same principle.

    Yes, they have no conception of causes excusing from obedience, which they think all impeded by V1.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #437 on: May 31, 2023, 12:12:07 PM »
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  • While you oversimplify the principle (it's not about resistance but about the indefectibility of the Church), this is in fact correct.  Conservative Novus Ordites and Sedevacantists adhere to the same Major, the eminently Catholic principle that legitimate Catholic Magisterium and the Public Worship of the Church cannot become corrupt.  This principle has only been taught by every Pope, Father, Doctor, and theologian throughout the entire history of the Catholic Church ... and has been denied only by Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants prior to the creation of mainstream "R&R" theology.

    By R&R I refer to some modern types who claim falsely to be heirs of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Archbishop Lefebvre himself upheld the principle of the Major that the Papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from corrupting the Church.  He simply questioned the Minor in terms of how this could have come about.  So those who try to defend their Old Catholic position as being that of Lefebvre are slandering him.

    Puking out the same lying slop without regard for refutation, and insisting on attributing a position to the Resistance which only exists in your own mind.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #438 on: May 31, 2023, 12:23:01 PM »
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  • He's either Robert Siscoe or John Salza.
    I doubt Siscoe or Salza would screw up very simple Latin, and mistake nulla salus for nullo salus, as I read in one former post.  Salus is a feminine noun and nulla is the only option.  This is basic, junior Latin.  On second thought, presuming that they have not studied the language it might be one of these men in question. 

    But as for Invincible Ignorance, unless it has escaped me, I have never found that the Church has defined the subject of invincible ignorance.  I know some theologians have theorized as to what it may or may not mean, but we throw this term around as though it is a carte blanche ticket into heaven.  Fr Wathen asked the question many years ago, Why is it that these pygmies in Swahililand, Australia, can know about Coca Cola, but they somehow cannot know about the Catholic Church? 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #439 on: May 31, 2023, 12:32:25 PM »
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  • I doubt Siscoe or Salza would screw up very simple Latin, and mistake nulla salus for nullo salus, as I read in one former post.  Salus is a feminine noun and nulla is the only option.  This is basic, junior Latin.

    But as for Invincible Ignorance, unless it has escaped me, I have never found that the Church has defined the subject of invincible ignorance.  I know some theologians have theorized as to what it may or may not mean, but we throw this term around as though it is a carte blanche ticket into heaven.  Fr Wathen asked the question many years ago, Why is it that these pygmies in Swahililand, Australia, can know about Coca Cola, but they somehow cannot know about the Catholic Church? 

    it sounds like because the libs want to exaggerate the extent of invincible ignorance, Fr. Watgen was denying its existence altogether?

    I note this Feeneyite characteristic rearing it’s head in the Newman discussion as well:

    Because the libs misappropriated his ideas, he’s a modernist (and no endorsement of the antimodernist pope can change their minds).

    It’s a peculiarity of the Anglo-Saxon psyche in some to react in this fashion.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #440 on: May 31, 2023, 12:37:00 PM »
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  • it sounds like because the libs want to exaggerate the extent of invincible ignorance, Fr. Watgen was denying its existence altogether?
    It’s a stupid argument because it has nothing to do worth anything 

    the invincible ignorance argument in and of itself is just about a hypothetical.  IF there are people who are genuinely can’t know, AND they have faith in God and that he will reward and punish AND they have perfect contrition THEN they could be saved

    Whether there really are such people at the moment is a separate question than what fate those people would have if they did exist

    one could think that theoretically they would be saved but actually think there are none.  I suspect ladislaus would think that they do exist but that they would go to limbo.  So the questions aren’t related 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #441 on: May 31, 2023, 12:38:24 PM »
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  • The idea of invincible ignorance came about around the 1500s, due to the explorers discovering America and questioning how so many "innocent natives" could be damned.  St Thomas rejects the notion that an adult could die in such ignorance - before they die, they will either accept or reject the Truth.  Most people's ignorance is culpable, so says St Thomas.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #442 on: May 31, 2023, 12:42:17 PM »
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  • It’s a stupid argument because it has nothing to do worth anything

    the invincible ignorance argument in and of itself is just about a hypothetical.  IF there are people who are genuinely can’t know, AND they have faith in God and that he will reward and punish AND they have perfect contrition THEN they could be saved

    Whether there really are such people at the moment is a separate question than what fate those people would have if they did exist

    one could think that theoretically they would be saved but actually think there are none.  I suspect ladislaus would think that they do exist but that they would go to limbo.  So the questions aren’t related

    A limbo if the justified who died in the state of grace?

    Yes, that unheard of novelty sounds exactly like something he would invent.

    But I do thank you for conceding the argument that those who die invincibly ignorant in the state of grace are saved.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #443 on: May 31, 2023, 12:43:20 PM »
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  • it sounds like because the libs want to exaggerate the extent of invincible ignorance, Fr. Watgen was denying its existence altogether?
    I've never heard of anyone who denies people in invincible ignorance are not guilty of the sin of unbelief.

    What people dispute is that there are certain mysteries of faith that must be known and believed by a necessity of means.


    Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (# 2), April 15, 1905: “And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.’”
    "We pray and entreat you to reflect on the great loss of souls due solely to ignorance of divine things."
     
    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832:  “Now we consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism.  This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.  Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care.  With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.  They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him.  Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).


    In other words, one must possess the Catholic faith.

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

    Notie the word "wishes", volunt in the Latin. Only those above the age of reason can will to be saved and those need to believe these essential mysteries, not only receive the faith through baptism as infants do.

    And before people start the debate about Quanto Conficiamur, etc. I'd like to bring up that Pius IX cites that very same encyclical as the source for condemning the following error:

    Syllabus of Errors: 17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. —Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

    Referring to: Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (# 7), To Bishops of Italy, 1863: "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching." 



    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #444 on: May 31, 2023, 12:44:53 PM »
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  • Most people's ignorance is culpable, so says St Thomas.
    All*

    St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is.”

    St. Thomas Aquinas: When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without the faith, but not because of their sin of unbelief.

    St. Prosper of Aquitaine: It may be true that there are, in the remotest parts of the world, some people who have not yet seen the light of the Savior. Certainly, God's manifold and ineffable goodness has always provided, and still provides, for all mankind in such a way that not one of the reprobates can find an excuse as though he had been refused the light of truth





    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #445 on: May 31, 2023, 12:49:14 PM »
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  • The idea of invincible ignorance came about around the 1500s, due to the explorers discovering America and questioning how so many "innocent natives" could be damned.  St Thomas rejects the notion that an adult could die in such ignorance - before they die, they will either accept or reject the Truth.  Most people's ignorance is culpable, so says St Thomas.




    On the contrary, he teaches they certainly could die in such a state, as a punishment for their sins:




    Summa Theologica


    II-II

    Question 10.   Article 1.


    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3010.htm#article1


    Quote
    . . . we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of sin, but of punishment, because such like ignorance of Divine things is a result of the sin of our first parent. If such like unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, but not on account of their sin of unbelief. Hence Our Lord said (John 15:22) "If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin"; which Augustine expounds (Tract. lxxxix in Joan.) as "referring to the sin whereby they believed not in Christ."


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #446 on: May 31, 2023, 12:51:34 PM »
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  • What does 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 state?


    Quote
    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #447 on: May 31, 2023, 01:02:35 PM »
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  • The idea of invincible ignorance came about around the 1500s, due to the explorers discovering America and questioning how so many "innocent natives" could be damned.


    You're also mixing up invincible ignorance with implicit faith.   


    It's implicit faith that needs to be condemned, not invincible ignorance.



    Regarding invincible ignorance, writing before the 1500s:



    Summa Theologica

    I-II

    Question 76.   Article 2.


    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2076.htm#article2


    Quote
    Wherefore through negligence, ignorance of what one is bound to know, is a sin; whereas it is not imputed as a sin to man, if he fails to know what he is unable to know. Consequently ignorance of such like things is called "invincible," because it cannot be overcome by study. For this reason such like ignorance, not being voluntary, since it is not in our power to be rid of it, is not a sin: wherefore it is evident that no invincible ignorance is a sin. On the other hand, vincible ignorance is a sin, if it be about matters one is bound to know; but not, if it be about things one is not bound to know.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #448 on: May 31, 2023, 01:05:01 PM »
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  • And I will post this again.

    It's not invincible ignorance that's the issue, it's implicit faith.





    St. Thomas Aquinas

    Quaestiones disputatae de veritate

    Question Fourteen: Faith

    ARTICLE XI: In the eleventh article we ask: Is it necessary to believe explicitly?

    http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/g3i.htm






    Quote
    1. We should not posit any proposition from which an untenable conclusion follows. But, if we claim that explicit belief is necessary for salvation, an untenable conclusion follows. For it is possible for someone to be brought up in the forest or among wolves, and such a one cannot have explicit knowledge of any matter of faith. Thus, there will be a man who will inevitably be damned. But this is untenable. Hence, explicit belief in something does not seem necessary.

    Answers to Difficulties

    1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #449 on: May 31, 2023, 01:09:58 PM »
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  • No, invincible ignorance implies that the person “does not deserve” to be ignorant and they are “sincerely good-willed.”

    The quotes you posted by St Thomas explain that those who are ignorant of the Faith, are so because of sin.  Therefore they aren’t “invincibly” ignorant (ie unable to be overcome) because if they followed the natural law, and their conscience, then God would give them Truth.  Thus, sinners who are ignorant are in culpable ignorance.  It’s their own fault.  

    Implicit faith is just another heretical way to say that God would create people, not give them Truth, and let them into heaven, without testing them. Which is a mockery of the Church and of all the saints/martyrs who “fought the good fight”.