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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41410 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #420 on: May 31, 2023, 10:52:44 AM »
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  • He's either Robert Siscoe or John Salza.

    I asked him that directly earlier in the thread, and he did not answer the question.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #421 on: May 31, 2023, 10:56:26 AM »
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  • LaCosaSalza begs the question that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church for every argument of his without ever having proved it, based solely on a purported material continuity of the hierarchy, claiming that it has the "Four Marks" of the Church, somehow believing that having a guy walking around Rome in a white cassock somehow encapsulates all Four Marks.  It has yet to be demonstrated that this Conciliar Church has ANY of the Marks of the True Catholic Church other than a purely material continuity with the pre-V2 Catholic Church.

    It's interesting that Salza chose LaCosaNostra as his screen name, which is the term for the Sicilian Mob / Mafia, and given that he recently accepted accolades and an award from the Masonic Sons of Italy, perhaps that's saying something.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #422 on: May 31, 2023, 11:04:15 AM »
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  • It's interesting that Salza chose LaCosaNostra as his screen name, which is the term for the Sicilian Mob / Mafia, and given that he recently accepted accolades and an award from the Masonic Sons of Italy, perhaps that's saying something.


    John Salza and the Order of the Sons of Italy


    https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/john-salza-and-the-order-of-the-sons-of-italy/



    In light of the recent attacks by John Salza against the SSPX and all Traditional Catholics, I am sure it would interest the viewers and users of this site to find out a very interesting fact about this man.

    Some years ago back in 2018, Salza attended an awards ceremony held by the Roma Lodge of the Order of the Sons of Italy (OSIA) in Wisconsin. You can see him pictured here among the other "honorees":



    See an excerpt of his "profile" here:




    The OSIA still has this recorded on their newsletter website, here are the links:

    https://franoi.com/community/osdia-state-lodge-honors-11-at-da-vinci-gala/

    https://franoi.com/profiles/osia0418/

    The OSIA is a masonic organization, as this in-depth Twitter thread reveals.








    It should be noted that one does not need to be a member of their organization to be an "honoree". Other organizations, like the masonic Rotary Club, also have a habit of awarding non-members if their lodge finds this non-member to embody the values of their organization. Nowhere under these two links does it state that Salza is a member of this lodge, or any lodge for that matter, yet the status of lodge membership is given for at least one of the honorees who went to the same event as Salza. See here the case of this Novus Ordo deacon:



    Though, funnily enough, the author of this article gives some mention of Salza's anti-masonic activities:



    Thus, it seems that while Salza is not a member of this group, this alleged crusader against Masonry is so highly regarded by this OSIA lodge that they gave him an award. Moreover, this foremost expert against Masonry received an award from a group of people he publicly claims to oppose and disavow.

    Two questions stand: Why did these Italian-American masons honor Salza, and why would Salza accept this award from them?

    There is something rotten in the state of Denmark!

    I have attached some relevant images below, along with PDF file downloads of the articles just in case they get "disappeared".

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #423 on: May 31, 2023, 11:09:50 AM »
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  • John Salza and the Order of the Sons of Italy


    https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/john-salza-and-the-order-of-the-sons-of-italy/

    Well then, it should be an be an easy job to convince everyone that Salza is wrong about the sedes, based on the idea that he may be a freemason. Using that argument against him is certainly easier than trying to refute his claims.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #424 on: May 31, 2023, 11:12:07 AM »
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  • Well then, it should be an be an easy job to convince everyone that Salza is wrong about the sedes, since he may be a freemason. Using that argument against him is certainly easier than trying to refute his claims.


    The crux isn't sede vs SSPX, but rather recognizing the Conciliar Church for what it is.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #425 on: May 31, 2023, 11:13:47 AM »
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  • The crux isn't sede vs SSPX, but rather recognizing the Conciliar Church for what it is.

    Bp. Faure once said that the ralliers (who want the SSPX to reconcile with Rome, like Salza does) and the sedevacantists are but two sides of the same coin.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #426 on: May 31, 2023, 11:14:50 AM »
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  • Bp. Faure once said that the ralliers (who want the SSPX to reconcile with Rome, like Salza does) and the sedevacantists are but two sides of the same coin.


    God forbid the SSPX ever does.

    We're almost 5 years away from the 70 year mark of the death of Pius XII, the next 10 years will be very interesting.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #427 on: May 31, 2023, 11:19:50 AM »
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  • God forbid the SSPX ever does.

    We're almost 5 years away from the 70 year mark of the death of Pius XII, the next 10 years will be very interesting.

    Yes, very interesting. The sedevacantists (not all of them, however, but generally) claim that if we believe that the Franics is the pope, then we cannot resist him. The ralliers believe the same - that we (the SSPX and Resistance) must be in full communion with the Pope and Rome. It's basically the same principle. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #428 on: May 31, 2023, 11:23:01 AM »
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  • The crux isn't sede vs SSPX, but rather recognizing the Conciliar Church for what it is.

    Meg is obsessed with SVism, but Salza condemns all Traditional Catholics (outside of Motu groups like FSSP, ICK, etc.) as schismatics, heretics, and outside the Church, in need of conversion.  And he's merely taking his false first principles to their logical conclusions, that SVs tried to point out were incorrect out of the gate, but R&R jumped on the bandwagon to defend these same principles that later Salza would turn against them as well.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #429 on: May 31, 2023, 11:25:20 AM »
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  • Yes, very interesting. The sedevacantists (not all of them, however, but generally) claim that if we believe that the Franics is the pope, then we cannot resist him. The ralliers believe the same - that we (the SSPX and Resistance) must be in full communion with the Pope and Rome. It's basically the same principle.

    While you oversimplify the principle (it's not about resistance but about the indefectibility of the Church), this is in fact correct.  Conservative Novus Ordites and Sedevacantists adhere to the same Major, the eminently Catholic principle that legitimate Catholic Magisterium and the Public Worship of the Church cannot become corrupt.  This principle has only been taught by every Pope, Father, Doctor, and theologian throughout the entire history of the Catholic Church ... and has been denied only by Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants prior to the creation of mainstream "R&R" theology.

    By R&R I refer to some modern types who claim falsely to be heirs of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Archbishop Lefebvre himself upheld the principle of the Major that the Papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from corrupting the Church.  He simply questioned the Minor in terms of how this could have come about.  So those who try to defend their Old Catholic position as being that of Lefebvre are slandering him.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #430 on: May 31, 2023, 11:28:18 AM »
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  • Meg is obsessed with SVism, but Salza condemns all Traditional Catholics (outside of Motu groups like FSSP, ICK, etc.) as schismatics, heretics, and outside the Church, in need of conversion.  And he's merely taking his false first principles to their logical conclusions, that SVs tried to point out were incorrect out of the gate, but R&R jumped on the bandwagon to defend these same principles that later Salza would turn against them as well.

    Yes, he may indeed condemn all trads outside of the indult bunch, but don't you condemn all trads who do not follow your reasoning - reasoning which says that we are heretics and schismatics if we do not hold Pope Francis as suspect of manifest heresy? I've lost track of the number of times you've called me a heretic and schismatic, but I must say that on other subjects, I agree with you. You tend to be quite reasonable with other subjects.

    I don't recall that the salza crowd has ever personally called me a heretic or schismatic, but then that crowd doesn't last very long here before they are banned. It's okay for the sedes to call us heretics and schismatics, but it's not okay for the indult folks to do the same. Doesn't seem fair somehow.

    Now you will of course attempt to distract away from the subject I'm putting forth - that's always the tactic of sedevacantists. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #431 on: May 31, 2023, 11:30:03 AM »
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  • I don't recall that the salza crowd has ever personally called me a heretic or schismatic ...

    Evidently you haven't been following this thread.  While he didn't mention you by name, he did in fact denounce all Trad Catholics as heretics and schismatics.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #432 on: May 31, 2023, 11:31:59 AM »
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  • Yes, he may indeed condemn all trads outside of the indult bunch, but don't you condemn all trads who do not follow your reasoning - reasoning which says that we are heretics and schismatics if we do not hold Pope Francis as suspect of manifest heresy?

    Yep.  Attributing corruption to the Church's Magisterium and Public Worship is at once heretical and schismatic.  Cf. my previous post.  Archbishop Lefebvre didn't hold your position.  And that is precisely why I started this thread, appealing to R&R to consider Father Chazal's position, since his does not labor under this difficulty.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #433 on: May 31, 2023, 11:38:47 AM »
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  • Yep.  Attributing corruption to the Church's Magisterium and Public Worship is at once heretical and schismatic.  Cf. my previous post.  Archbishop Lefebvre didn't hold your position.  And that is precisely why I started this thread, appealing to R&R to consider Father Chazal's position, since his does not labor under this difficulty.

    I think that Salza would likely believe the same as you do, regarding Catholics being heretical and schismatic if they attribute corruption to the Church's magisterium. But here's the thing. If the church is occupied, then of course the occupiers are going to do crazy things. That's why I asked him if he believes that the Church is occupied. He didn't respond, but maybe he was banned by then.

    We don't look at the situation in the same way. But you and Salza do, at least in this aspect.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #434 on: May 31, 2023, 11:51:48 AM »
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  • Yep.  Attributing corruption to the Church's Magisterium and Public Worship is at once heretical and schismatic.  Cf. my previous post.  Archbishop Lefebvre didn't hold your position.  And that is precisely why I started this thread, appealing to R&R to consider Father Chazal's position, since his does not labor under this difficulty.

    Notice the lie inserted into this small blurb:

    Pretending Lefebvre didn’t hold our position.  “The Resistance attributes corruption to the magisterium,” but has anyone ever heard the Resistance say such a thing?  Or does this lie depend upon Lad’s gratuitous hermeneutic and caricature of our position (Hint: The answer is yes)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."