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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41392 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #375 on: May 31, 2023, 07:42:59 AM »
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    • PS: But I’d still be interested in seeing something which states schismatic infants forfeit grace at the age of reason (since invincible ignorance would seem to make the morally culpable sin by which such a forfeiture transpired impossible), which would be necessary for them to avoid salvation.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #376 on: May 31, 2023, 07:51:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 07:42:59 AM
    PS: But I’d still be interested in seeing something which states schismatic infants forfeit grace at the age of reason (since invincible ignorance would seem to make the morally culpable sin by which such a forfeiture transpired impossible), which would be necessary for them to avoid salvation.

    One need not actually sin against the faith to lack the virtue of faith.  It can be missing by simple absence.  This is a semi-Pelagian mindset where people must actively sin in order to forfeit salvation.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #377 on: May 31, 2023, 07:56:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 31, 2023, 07:51:20 AM
    This is a semi-Pelagian mindset where people must actively sin in order to forfeit salvation.

    What??

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited, since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #378 on: May 31, 2023, 08:02:38 AM »
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    Everything that was de fide before Vatican II is de fide today, and nothing has been proposed as de fide since Vatican II that was not already de fide before the Council.  What that means is that the faith taught by the Church has not changed. 
    :facepalm:  The Church is more than just doctrine.  It is well known that most Modernists in Pope St Pius X's days started their plotting in the liturgical area, which is the PRACTICAL application of doctrine.  The V2 anti-church has corrupted people's application/attitude/practices of the Faith, even if the core tenants of the Faith are still "pure".


    Example: The core doctrine of "temporal punishment due to sin" (i.e. purgatory) is still believed, but in practice, the V2 church no longer has requiem masses, nor encourages the faithful to pray for the dead.

    2 of my novus ordo neighbors told me about some family members who had died and I offered to pray for their souls and started talking about purgatory.  They quickly changed the subject and didn't want to be bothered about it.  They still go to weekly church and are considered "good" catholics.  It was very odd behavior for a catholic; but very typical for a novus ordo protestant...which is what they've been TRAINED TO BE.

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #379 on: May 31, 2023, 08:05:20 AM »
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    One need not actually sin against the faith to lack the virtue of faith.  It can be missing by simple absence.
    Once one reaches the age of reason, they have a DUTY to practice the Faith (to follow truth and seek it).  So a baptized person who does not follow the prompts of grace in his heart and the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, sins by omission and inaction.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #380 on: May 31, 2023, 08:05:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 07:56:10 AM
    What??

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited, since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?

    There can be no charity (aka state of grace) without supernatural faith.  Once one has reached the age of reason, there can be no merely-infused supernatural faith.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #381 on: May 31, 2023, 08:13:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 07:56:10 AM
    What??

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited, since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    Those who do not believe in Christ, in His Church, who do not have the Catholic faith, sin. The sin of unbelief.
     
    John 16:8-9 And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.  9 Of sin: because they believed not in me. 
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #382 on: May 31, 2023, 08:13:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 31, 2023, 08:05:29 AM
    There can be no charity (aka state of grace) without supernatural faith.  Once one has reached the age of reason, there can be no merely-infused supernatural faith.

    You aren’t answering the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited, since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #383 on: May 31, 2023, 08:16:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 08:13:46 AM
    You aren’t answering the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited, since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
    The Errors of Peter Abelard, Condemned by Innocent II, July 16, 1140, #10: “That they have not sinned who being ignorant have crucified Christ, and that whatever is done through ignorance must not be considered sin.” ‐ Condemned
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #384 on: May 31, 2023, 08:18:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 31, 2023, 08:13:41 AM
    Those who do not believe in Christ, in His Church, who do not have the Catholic faith, sin. The sin of unbelief.
     
    John 16:8-9 And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.  9 Of sin: because they believed not in me. 

    Please read more carefully, and explain how the invincibly ignorant in the state of grace can commit grievous sin to forfeit grace.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #385 on: May 31, 2023, 08:20:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on May 31, 2023, 08:16:33 AM
    The Errors of Peter Abelard, Condemned by Innocent II, July 16, 1140, #10: “That they have not sinned who being ignorant have crucified Christ, and that whatever is done through ignorance must not be considered sin.” ‐ Condemned

    According to moral theology, lacking full knowledge, such sin is only venial (and consequently, grace is not forfeited).

    The quote does not help you.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #386 on: May 31, 2023, 08:23:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 08:18:00 AM
    Please read more carefully, and explain how the invincibly ignorant in the state of grace can commit grievous sin to forfeit grace.
    Sorry, I thought you were asking about how schismatic infants forfeit grace at the age of reason, which is of course by sin, the sin of unbelief. For those incapable of thinking, i.e. invincibly ignorant, they do not forfeit grace by their unbelief. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #387 on: May 31, 2023, 08:30:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 31, 2023, 08:13:46 AM
    You aren’t answering the question:

    If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited, since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost?

    Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?

    I'm rejecting how you're begging the question with what you're asking.  Absence of supernatural faith makes charity impossible.  Your question is semi-Pelagian.  When infants received infused supernatural faith and charity, those merely infused virtues only continue until the age of reason.  At that point, if not confirmed with actual acts of faith and an actual profession of faith, the infused virtue fades away by atrophy.  In adults who are possessed of reason, there can be no merely-infused supernatural virtue of faith.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #388 on: May 31, 2023, 08:49:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: LaCosaNostra on May 31, 2023, 07:41:50 AM
    I never said Traditional Catholics who adhere to the Church's doctrine and Magisterium are outside the Church.  It is those who call themselves Traditional Catholics, but don't hold to Catholic doctrine and the Magisterium who are outside the Church.  And those who deny that the local church of Rome and the diocese throughout the world in union with it constitute the indefectible Church with four marks, outside of which there is no salvation, neither adhere to Catholic doctrine, nor to the living Magisterium.  And those same heretics...

    Yes, you are saying that.

    Traditional Catholics, who arose spontaneously in ALL PLACES starting on Day One of the Crisis in the Church, have done precisely the thing you deplore from the beginning. It's PART of the Traditional Movement to leave, reject, and stay aloof from the Conciliar Church until they regain their Catholic sanity. This has been going on since 1969. It's called the Crisis in the Church. Welcome to REALITY!

    Ladislaus made some very good points in his posts above. I highly recommend that people read them. You need to call him the Bus Driver, "CosaNostra", because HE TOOK YOU TO SCHOOL.

    It's common sense that faithful Catholics, the Faithful Remnant, are the actual Catholics headed for Heaven, whereas countless "Catholics" (Biden, Peℓσѕι, etc.) are a joke of a Catholic -- common sense says they don't have the Faith. It's not rocket science.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #389 on: May 31, 2023, 08:59:29 AM »
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    Please read more carefully, and explain how the invincibly ignorant in the state of grace can commit grievous sin to forfeit grace.
    A baptized child of 6, who is in the state of grace, is NOT invincibly ignorant.  Quite the contrary.  A person in the state of grace, at the age of reason, has the Holy Ghost within him and thus is prompted by Him to a) stay in the state of grace/follow the 10 commandments and b) seek God and Truth (if they aren't practicing the Faith or don't know of it).


    There are innumerable stories of young children of 7, 8, 9, 10 years old who were baptized as some type of protestant.  These children had catholic friends and the protestant children would go to the catholic church a few times in their childhood with their friends.  It wasn't until they became teenagers or young adults that they converted to the Faith because "they always liked the Catholic Church they had visited" and/or "there was something I was drawn to".

    This is grace building upon good nature.  They converted in God's time and followed His promptings.

    Or how about the millions and millions of apparitions/holy dreams that are happening all over the Middle East right now?  Muslims are hearing about Christ and He is appearing to them in dreams, telling them to "Follow Me" and then He gives them instructions to go to some place, at a specific time and look for a specific person.  Who turns out to be a Christian.  They end up getting baptized.

    A muslim would be "invincibly ignorant" and look at what God is doing for them.  Look how He is calling those of good will.

    A baptized child is the Temple of the Holy Ghost...all God has to do is speak to them in their heart.  There's no way they are ignorant (unless, by sin, they close their heart to Him).
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