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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55897 times)

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #335 on: May 30, 2023, 06:49:25 AM »
No.  Where in canon law does it give ANY LAITY the power/authority to DO ANYTHING?  Hint: it doesn't.


If non-church officials (i.e. laity, simple priests, and non-jurisdictional bishops) can do x, y, or z, outside of the church hierarchy, then the hierarchy is meaningless.  Either the Church is a monarchy, with authority, or it's some kind of protestant/grass-roots/"personal faith" type of spirituality.  It can't be both.

The only "personal decision" that the laity, simple priests, non-jurisdictional bishops can make is to "stay away" from error.  Any legal, authoritative, canonical decision is the Church's alone to make, or not make.

Where in Canon Law does it state that a layman cannot affirm that an act has occurred?  Let me be clear that I am not speaking about a canonical judgment.  I am speaking about affirming that an act has occurred.  That's it.  In the case at hand, it is about affirming that one has committed the public sin of heresy.

You did not answer my question.  What is the cause for you rejecting Vatican II and the New Rite of Mass?  Where did you get the right to pre-empt the Church's judgment on these matters?

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #336 on: May 30, 2023, 07:00:47 AM »
But the point is, if the sin of heresy, of its nature, severed a person from the Church, a person who committed the sin of heresy by an interior act alone would be severed from the Church.   The sin of heresy only severs the internal bonds that joins a person to the Church.  It does not sever the external bonds.  What severs the external bond is not a "public sin" of heresy, it is notorious heresy (and nothing less than notorious heresy); and notorious heresy severs the external bonds even if the person in question is not guilty of the sin.

None of the recent popes, including Francis, has come close to being a notorious heretic. 


“Siquidem non omne admissum, etsi grave scelus, eiusmodi est ut — sicut schisma, vel haeresis, vel apostasia faciunt — suapte natura hominem ab Ecclesiae Corpore separet.”

For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

(Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23) [Italics mine]

Pope Pius XII speaks here about the Body of the Church.  Therefore, he is meaning separation from the Church as a visible member because of the public sin of heresy.  Pope Pius XII neither affirms nor denies the following proposition:

The occult sin of heresy per se separates one from the Church.


Offline trad123

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #337 on: May 30, 2023, 07:31:15 AM »
The Catholic Church and Salvation by Joseph Clifford Fenton


https://archive.org/details/catholicchurchsa0000fent/page/n5/mode/2up



Page 3:


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A dogma is a truth which the Church finds in Scripture or in divine apostolic tradition and which, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching activity, it presents to its people as a doctrine revealed by God and as something which all are obligated to accept with the assent of divine and Catholic faith. Since the teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is a dogma, men are obligated in conscience to believe it as certainly true on the authority of God Himself, who has revealed it. Objectively the refusal to believe this teaching with an act of divine faith constitutes heresy. The public denial by a Catholic of this or any other dogma of the Church is something that carries with it a loss of membership in the true Church.



Page 8:


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The term fidelis had and still has a definite technical meaning in the language of Christianity. The fideles, or the faithful, are not merely the individuals who have made an act of divine faith in accepting the teachings of God’s public and Christian revelation. ‘They are actually those who have made the baptismal profession of faith, and who have not cut themselves off from the unity of the Church by public apostasy or heresy or schism and have not been cast out of the Church




Page 9:


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Actually, in the traditional language of the Church, the term christianus itself had a wider application than the word fidelis. A catechumen might be designated as a christianus, but never as a fidelis.* A man gained the dignity and the position of a fidelis through the reception of the sacrament of baptism. ‘This sacrament is precisely the sacrament of the faith. By the force of the character it imparts, it incorporates the person who receives it into that community which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. The effect of that incorporation is broken only by public heresy or apostasy, by schism, or by the full measure of excommunication. The man in whom the incorporating work of the baptismal character remains un- broken is the fidelis, the member of the Catholic Church. The social unit composed of these fideles is, according to the teaching of the Fourth Lateran Council, the true Church, outside which no one at all is saved.



Page 107:


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Baptism is, of course, the sacrament of entrance into the Church. Such is the force of the baptismal character that, unless it be impeded by public heresy or apostasy, schism, or the full measure of excommunication, it renders the person who possesses it a member of the true Church of Jesus Christ on earth.


Offline trad123

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #338 on: May 30, 2023, 07:36:39 AM »
Questions About Membership in the Church

Msgr Fenton


https://tradicat.blogspot.com/2013/10/questions-about-membership-in-church.html




Quote
Certainly the Mystici Corporis Christi statement about membership in the Church is quite in line with the teaching of the De ecclesia militante. According to Pope Pius XII, four factors alone are necessary in order that a man be counted as a member of the true Church. These are (1) the reception of baptism, and thus the possession of the baptismal character, (2) the profession of the true faith, which is, of course, the faith of the Catholic Church, (3) the fact that a person has not cut himself away from the structure or the fabric of the "Body," which is, of course, the Church itself, and (4) the fact that a person has not been expelled from the membership of the Church by competent ecclesiastical authority.

It is the nature of the third of these four factors which, in the context of the encyclical, is not completely clear. Very definitely a person would cut himself off from the structure of the ecclesiastical Body if he entered into a state of public heresy or apostasy. But that condition had already been taken care of in the naming of the second of the factors which the Mystici Corporis Christi lists as requisite for membership in the true Church. Very definitely the "cutting away" mentioned in the third point of this statement might involve entrance into the state of schism. But it could, of course, imply that some act against the spiritual or invisible bond of unity within the Church might also cut a person away from membership in the Church. The text of the Mystici Corporis Christi is not, in itself, sufficiently clear on this point.

Yet, over the course of the years, it has become increasingly obvious that the common teaching of the Catholic theologians holds that people are members of the Church or parts of the Church only by the possession of these visible or palpable factors. The term "member of the Church" can legitimately be applied only to those baptized persons who have not frustrated the force of their baptismal characters by public heresy or apostasy, or by schism, and who have not been expelled from the Church by competent ecclesiastical authority. The theological demonstration that backs up this thesis is still and always will be the "proof from reason" which St. Robert Bellarmine alleged in support of his teaching in the De ecclesia militante.11 More effectively, perhaps, than any other writer in the history of the Catholic Church, St. Robert pointed to the fact that the basic Catholic claim, that the Church militant according to the dispensation of the New Testament is essentially a visible Church, involves and includes the teaching that membership in the Church is possessed by all and only the people who have those factors which go to make up the visible or external bond of unity within the Church of God.



Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #339 on: May 30, 2023, 08:15:43 AM »
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Where in Canon Law does it state that a layman cannot affirm that an act has occurred? 
1.  Laymen aren't part of the Church, in the sense of Canon Law, which was made by and for ecclesiastics to rule.

2.  The Church isn't a democracy; it's a monarchy.  The laity don't have "rights" in the same sense as a democracy.
3.  A layman's affirmation or non-affirmation is meaningless.  Just like in a regular court room...judge, lawyers, jury...everyone else's opinion is moot.


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Let me be clear that I am not speaking about a canonical judgment.  I am speaking about affirming that an act has occurred.  That's it.
Your affirmation carries no legal weight, nor any authority, nor is binding on anyone else.  So it's meaningless.  No one has to pay attention to what you affirm or don't affirm.  You aren't the Church. 



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In the case at hand, it is about affirming that one has committed the public sin of heresy.
1.  All of this is a legal act, done by legal authorities.  It can't be done by any layman.
2.  First it must be proved that person A said heresy x.
3.  Then it must be proved that heresy x was said 'publicly' (as canon law defines it, not according to Webster's dictionary).
4.  Then it must be proved that person A knew, or should have known, that heresy x was in fact a heresy.
5.  Then it must be determined if the 'public sin of heresy' was committed and the penalty, according to law.

None of this is in the authority, education, or training of any layman (excepting someone who has a canon law degree...but then they still have no authority).

Quote
You did not answer my question.  What is the cause for you rejecting Vatican II and the New Rite of Mass?  Where did you get the right to pre-empt the Church's judgment on these matters?
I reject such because i'm legally allowed to, since they aren't binding under pain of sin for me to attend/accept.  Even +Benedict said in 2007's motu that Quo Primum was still legally in effect and this law a) binds me to the Old rite, b) prevents me from attending any other rite, and c) disallows any new rites.  No post-V2 law has ever made the new mass obligatory, in any degree.