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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 27783 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #315 on: May 29, 2023, 01:02:03 PM »
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  • Emile.  I agree. 

    But Catholic Knight is implying that his application of such principles is 1) obvious, 2) some sort of teaching, which 3) everyone should agree with.  

    Everyone agrees with the principle (ie a heretic loses membership) but the APPLICATION of this principle is anything but clear.  If it was simple, then +Bellarmine and all the theologians wouldn’t have debated the issue for decades.  …And they still never agreed.  …So, no, there’s no consensus. 


    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #316 on: May 29, 2023, 03:03:00 PM »
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  • The sin of heresy can be either an interior act alone or it can also be manifested externally.  That the Church defines the external manifestation of heresy as a crime does not detract from the sin of heresy being a sin whether internal alone or manifested externally. 

    But the point is, if thsin of heresy, of its nature, severed a person from the Church, a person who committed the sin of heresy by an interior act alone would be severed from the Church.    The sin of heresy only severs the internal bonds that joins a person to the Church.   It does not sever the external bonds.   What severs the external bond is not a "public sin" of heresy, it is notorious heresy (and nothing less than notorious heresy); and notorious heresy severs the external bonds even if the person in question is not guilty of the sin

    None of the recent popes, including Francis, has come close to being a notorious heretic.  






    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #317 on: May 29, 2023, 03:26:34 PM »
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  • None of the recent popes, including Francis, has come close to being a notorious heretic. 


    :facepalm: ... you posted this with a straight face?

    Bergoglio recently declared some Coptic Orthodox "martyrs" to be saints and had them included in the Roman martyrology ... thereby verbatim contradicting the dogmatic declaration of the Council of Florence.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #318 on: May 29, 2023, 03:29:46 PM »
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  • The worst was +Francis denying hell.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #319 on: May 29, 2023, 04:32:39 PM »
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  • The worst was +Francis denying hell.

    Well, with that one he maintains deniability because those statements were reported by Scalfari.  Bergoglio, in his typical scandalous fashion, never repudiated the grossly-heretical statements attributed to him by Scalfari, and even kept granting him additional interviews.  IMO, he did this because he wanted to create chaos, and I suspect that Scalfari was quite accurate, but Jorge used him precisely because he could maintain a plausible deniability due to Scalfari not taking notes.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #320 on: May 29, 2023, 04:45:56 PM »
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  • :facepalm: ... you posted this with a straight face?

    Bergoglio recently declared some Coptic Orthodox "martyrs" to be saints and had them included in the Roman martyrology ... thereby verbatim contradicting the dogmatic declaration of the Council of Florence.

    Lad likes to use the pedestrian/vulgar sense of words to advance his agenda, rather than their theological or canonical sense (which he finds too restrictive and a hindrance). 

    Supposing it were true (ie., you do not supply any quotes/citations to back your argument), it would only be material heresy, which could not become formal and pertinacious without a declaration from the Church.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #321 on: May 29, 2023, 05:08:58 PM »
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  • https://lumenscholasticuм.wordpress.com/2016/12/05/fr-salaverri-on-whether-heretics-apostates-schismatics-and-excommunicates-are-members-of-the-church/



    Ioachim Salaverri,

    Sacræ Theologiæ Summa vol. I, tract. 3, pp. 872-882.

    De Ecclesia Christi lib. III, cap. 2, a. 3. Causæ quæ baptizatum ab Ecclesiæ corpore separant.

    Thesis 26, nos. 1045-1067.





    Quote
    1047. Notions. The notion of member has been explicated in the preceding thesis.

    A heretic is one who, after Baptism has been received, pertinaciously denies some of the truths to be believed with divine and catholic faith, or entertains doubts concerning them.

    One is called an apostate who, after Baptism has been received, pertinaciously recedes totally from the Christian faith.[6] The same divisions which follow concerning the heretic are entirely valid for the apostate.

    A material heretic is one who indeed denies a truth to be believed with divine and catholic faith, but from invincible ignorance or from error accepted in good faith. Good faith in one who errs is the prudent judgment by which the errant one thinks himself not to err, but on the contrary, to adhere to the truth.

    A formal heretic is one who denies a truth to be believed, out of vincible ignorance or from error accepted in bad or doubtful faith.

    A manifest heretic is one whose error or doubt in faith cannot be concealed by hiding.

    But an occult heretic is one whose error or doubt in faith remains sufficiently concealed.

    A public heretic is one who openly adheres to one of the heretical sects. But a private heretic is one who openly adheres to none of the heretical sects.

    The same divisions and definitions can be made concerning the apostate.






    Quote
    1052. Opinions of the Theologians.

    About the particular points and ulterior questions which occur in this matter relative to the separation of the baptized from the Church, Catholic theologians put forth various opinions, the chief of which, for the sake of information, we review.


    1) That formal and manifest heretics are not members of the body of the Church, can well be said to be a unanimous opinion among Catholics.

    a) That formal, but occult, heretics are not members of the Church, is defended by some authors, such as Suárez, Molina, Billuart, Franzelin, Michelitsch, Stolz, Fraghi, Journet, Zapalena, and a few others. But the contrary opinion is more common.[12]

    b) That merely material heretics, even if manifest, are members of the Church, is argued by Franzelin, De Groot, D’Herbigny, Caperan, Terrien, and a few others. But the contrary opinion is more common.[13]






    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/on-the-roman-pontiff/


    St. Robert Bellarmine

    De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30




    Quote
    This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.


    [ . . . ]


    Finally, the Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church, but also that they are “ipso facto” deprived of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity. St. Cyprian (lib. 2, epist. 6) says: “We affirm that absolutely no heretic or schismatic has any power or right”; and he also teaches (lib. 2, epist. 1) that the heretics who return to the Church must be received as laymen, even though they have been formerly priests or bishops in the Church. St. Optatus (lib. 1 cont. Parmen.) teaches that heretics and schismatics cannot have the keys of the kingdom of heaven, nor bind nor loose. St. Ambrose (lib. 1 de poenit., ca. 2), St. Augustine (in Enchir., cap 65), St. Jerome (lib. cont. Lucifer.) teach the same.


    [ . . . ]


    Therefore, the true opinion is the fifth, according to which the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers, who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction, and outstandingly that of St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2) who speaks as follows of Novatian, who was Pope [i.e. antipope] in the schism which occurred during the pontificate of St. Cornelius: “He would not be able to retain the episcopate [i.e. of Rome], and, if he was made bishop before, he separated himself from the body of those who were, like him, bishops, and from the unity of the Church.”
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #322 on: May 29, 2023, 05:19:31 PM »
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  • Well, with that one he maintains deniability because those statements were reported by Scalfari.  

    Correct.  Someone claiming that Francis denies hell does not make Francis a notorious heretic.  


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #323 on: May 29, 2023, 05:23:29 PM »
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  • https://lumenscholasticuм.wordpress.com/2016/12/05/fr-salaverri-on-whether-heretics-apostates-schismatics-and-excommunicates-are-members-of-the-church/



    Ioachim Salaverri,

    Sacræ Theologiæ Summa vol. I, tract. 3, pp. 872-882.

    De Ecclesia Christi lib. III, cap. 2, a. 3. Causæ quæ baptizatum ab Ecclesiæ corpore separant.

    Thesis 26, nos. 1045-1067.













    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/on-the-roman-pontiff/


    St. Robert Bellarmine

    De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30

    Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757)
    Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith.
    ~ Article 3 ~
    "I say that manifest heretics, unless they are denounced by name, or themselves depart from the Church, retain their jurisdiction and validly absolve.  This is proved by the Bull of Martin V, Ad evitanda scandala, [which reads thus]:
    Quote
    'To avoid the scandals and the many perils that can befall timorous consciences, we mercifully grant to the faithful of Christ, by the force of this decree (tenore praesentium), that henceforth no one will be obliged, under the pretext of any sentence or ecclesiastical censure generally promulgated by law or by man, to avoid the communion of any person, in the administration or reception of the Sacraments, or in any other matters sacred or profane, or to eschew the person, or to observe any ecclesiastical interdict, unless a sentence or censure of this kind shall have been published by a judge, and denounced specially and expressly, whether against a person, or a college, or university, or church, or a certain place or territory.  Neither the Apostolic Constitutions, nor any other laws remain in force to the contrary.'
    "Then [the Bull] lists, as the only exception, those who are notorious for having inflicted violence on the clergy.  From these lines, we argue that the Church is granting permission to the faithful to receive the sacraments from heretics who have not yet been expressly denounced by name; and, therefore, that she allows the latter to retain their jurisdiction for the valid administration of the sacraments, since otherwise the concession granted to the faithful would mean nothing.
    "Our argument is confirmed by the current praxis of the entire Church; for no one today ... avoids his pastor, even for the reception of the sacraments, as long as he is allowed to remain in his benefice, even if the man is, in the judgment of all or at least of the majority, a manifest Jansenist, and rebellious against the definitions of the Church; and so on with the rest.
    "I have said in my thesis, 'unless they depart from the Church of their own accord'; for, by the fact that they depart from the Church, they renounce her jurisdiction, and as a result we infer that the Church does not continue to give it to them.  ...  If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord.
    "Nor does it follow from thisas if there were paritythat no one should be considered a public sinner unless denounced; or that, consequently, the Eucharist cannot be denied to any sinners except those who have been denounced.  The difference is, first of all, that the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.  But the Church does not require a denunciation for someone to be considered a public sinner, or to be repelled from Communion, because the welfare and tranquility of the faithful do not require that.  Also, it is not the business of the faithful to pass judgment on the jurisdiction of their ministers, and often it is impossible for them to do so; but this pertains to the superiors who grant the ministers their jurisdiction.  It pertains to the ministers, however, to pass judgment on those who receive the sacraments. ...


    "The pope… does not have his jurisdiction from the Church, but from Christ.  Nowhere has it been declared that Christ would continue to give jurisdiction to a manifestly heretical Pope, since his heresy could become known to the Church, and the Church could provide another pastor for herself.  Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #324 on: May 29, 2023, 05:38:47 PM »
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  • Contra Billuart, regarding his understanding of the Bull of Martin V, at the Council of Constance:




    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/on-the-roman-pontiff/




    Quote
    Pope St. Celestine I (epist. ad Jo. Antioch., which appears in Conc. Ephes., tom. I, cap. 19) wrote: “It is evident that he [who has been excommunicated by Nestorius] has remained and remains in communion with us, and that we do not consider destituted [i.e. deprived of office, by judgment of Nestorius], anyone who has been excommunicated or deprived of his charge, either episcopal or clerical, by Bishop Nestorius or by the others who followed him, after they commenced preaching heresy. For he who had already shown himself as deserving to be excommunicated, could not excommunicate anyone by his sentence.”

    And in a letter to the clergy of Constantinople, Pope St. Celestine I says: “The authority of Our Apostolic See has determined that the bishop, cleric, or simple Christian who had been deposed or excommunicated by Nestorius or his followers, after the latter began to preach heresy shall not be considered deposed or excommunicated. For he who had defected from the faith with such preachings, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever.”


    St. Nicholas I (epist. ad Michael) repeats and confirms the same. Finally, St. Thomas also teaches (S. Theol., II-II, q. 39, a. 3) that schismatics immediately lose all jurisdiction, and that anything they try to do on the basis of any jurisdiction will be null.


    There is no basis for that which some respond to this: that these Fathers based themselves on ancient law, while nowadays, by decree of the Council of Constance, they alone lose their jurisdiction who are excommunicated by name or who assault clerics.


    This argument, I say, has no value at all, for those Fathers, in affirming that heretics lose jurisdiction, did not cite any human law, which furthermore perhaps did not exist in relation to the matter, but argued on the basis of the very nature of heresy.

    The Council of Constance only deals with the excommunicated, that is, those who have lost jurisdiction by sentence of the Church, while heretics already before being excommunicated are outside the Church and deprived of all jurisdiction.

    For they have already been condemned by their own sentence, as the Apostle teaches (Tit. 3:10-11), that is, they have been cut off from the body of the Church without excommunication, as St. Jerome affirms.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #325 on: May 29, 2023, 05:47:35 PM »
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  • Contra Billuart, regarding his understanding of the Bull of Martin V, at the Council of Constance:




    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/on-the-roman-pontiff/

    I have no doubt you believe the CMRI has refuted Billuart.

    😕
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #326 on: May 29, 2023, 05:49:40 PM »
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  • I have no doubt you believe the CMRI has refuted Billuart.

    😕


    That is St. Robert Bellarmine writing, from previously quoted:

    De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30


    The CMRI are merely hosting that writing on that web page.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #327 on: May 29, 2023, 06:10:08 PM »
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  • That is St. Robert Bellarmine writing, from previously quoted:

    De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30


    The CMRI are merely hosting that writing on that web page.

    We’re all aware of Bellarmine’s quotes, which pop up here daily.

    Unfortunately, hardly any quoting him understand what he means (another debate which appears here at least weekly).

    And of course, Billuart came after Bellarmine.

    The search function will lead you to at least 100 refutations of the argument you’re trying to make.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trad123

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #328 on: May 29, 2023, 06:11:54 PM »
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  • And of course, Billuart came after Bellarmine.


    Immaterial, the positions are mutually opposed.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #329 on: May 29, 2023, 06:19:52 PM »
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  • I have no doubt you believe the CMRI has refuted Billuart.

    😕

    There's nothing in there from CMRI; it's simply a translation of Bellarmine.  So I have no doubt that you didn't even bother to click the link before denouncing it, since you rule out beforehand any arguments against your predetermined conclusions.

    Despite your use of an obnoxiously large font, Billuart's position has to do with ordinary lower-level prelates, and not popes.  Take the case of Cardinal Cushing, for instance.  He was clearly a manifest heretic.  But the faithful are not obliged to avoid him, and he can retain a certain amount of jurisdiction and continue to exercise jurisdiction, though color of title, at the very least, until he would be deposed by Rome.

    But the papacy is different:

    1) because Popes receive their authority from Christ and
    2) no one can judge or denounce or depose him

    Billuart (and Pope Martin) were referring to jurisdiction with regard to receiving the Sacraments.  Thus, although Cushing was a manifest heretic, the priests appointed by Cushing would still retain jurisdiction to hear Confessions, for instance.  That's all that was in that text that you continue to misapply.

    In his closing paragraph, Billuart admits that all that went before does not necessarily apply to the papacy (something you ignore), but then states that he believes God would continue to supply jurisdiction for the good of the Church.  But this is along the lines of the "color of title" position held by the sedevacantists, and would be limited to things like making appointments or jurisdiction for the reception of the Sacraments.