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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41416 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #300 on: May 22, 2023, 11:00:17 AM »
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  • I will post a lengthy commentary on the new code tomorrow that describes the difference between canon 188.4 and 194.2. 

    But for now, you are wrong about 194.2.  If the Church has not issued a declaratory sentence, all the acts of the cleric remain valid and he is even entitled to renumeration.  If his acts remain valid, they are legally binding; and if they are legally binding, they proceed from authority.

    Your "lengthy commentary" may not be necessary. You seem to be confused about the terminology in the 1983 Code. Let's look more closely at the situation as it is described in the 1983 Code:

    1. First the context. We are discussing the loss [amissione] of an ecclesiastical office. If one loses an office, they cannot at the same time possess that office. This is a binary condition from a logical standpoint. When legal claimant to an office loses the office by law, the office becomes legally "vacant."
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    Can. 184 §1. An ecclesiastical office is lost by the lapse of a predetermined time, by reaching the age determined by law, by resignation, by transfer, by removal, and by privation.


    2. The specific cause that we are considering is that of a "removal" of a person from an "office." A "removal" of the person causes a "loss" of the office. Remember that a "loss" is a binary condition. Legally, one cannot both lose and hold an office a the same time. So, one who is "removed" from office, by definition, no longer legally holds that office.


    3. How then can a person be "removed" from an office? The 1983 Code tells us that the person may be removed EITHER by 1) a decree OR 2) by the law itself. These two causes are mutually exclusive. If the "removal" is caused only by "a decree," then it cannot at the same time also be caused "by the law itself." Again, we have a binary condition here.
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    Can. 192 A person is removed from office either by a decree issued legitimately by competent authority, without prejudice to rights possibly acquired by contract, or by the law itself according to the norm of can. 194.


    4. In our case, we are discussing the second option: a removal of a person from an office by the law itself. Don't forget now, this "removal" causes a "loss" of office that is a binary condition. The person cannot be "removed" and "not removed" at the same time. As such, the office cannot be "vacant" and "not vacant," according to the law, at the same time. That would violate the logical principle of non-contradiction. And the removal discussed in this case DOES NOT REQUIRE A DECREE. The law governing a removal by the law itself is found in Canon 194, which states:
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    Can. 194 §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself:
    1/ a person who has lost the clerical state;
    2/ a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church;
    3/ a cleric who has attempted marriage even if only civilly.


    5. So, a person who "publicly defects from the Catholic faith" is "removed" from office NOT BY A DECREE but by the law itself, according to Canon 194. However, the person occupying the office might refuse to vacate the office. How does the Church handle that situation? Does it allow a vigilante posse to "enforce" the "removal" that is already legally effective? No, the Church says that it can be "enforced" only after a "declaration of a competent authority." The "loss" has already taken place. The office is "vacant" from a legal perspective. But the office is still occupied by a person who refuses to follow the law. In that case, a "declaration" is required before calling in the people with guns.
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    Canon 194 §2. The removal mentioned in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.


    6. Now, lets look at your claim quoted above, which I will quote again here:
    Quote
    But for now, you are wrong about 194.2.  If the Church has not issued a declaratory sentence, all the acts of the cleric remain valid and he is even entitled to renumeration.  If his acts remain valid, they are legally binding; and if they are legally binding, they proceed from authority.

    Here is your argument (paraphrased) in a syllogism:

    Major Premise: The Church must issue a declaratory sentence to invalidate the acts of a cleric holding any office.
    Minor Premise: The Church has not issued a declaratory sentence.
    Conclusion: All acts of the previously appointed officeholder continue to be valid and legally binding until a declaration is made.

    First, a "declaratory sentence" is not necessary in the case of a condition requiring removal by "the law itself," which is proven by Canon 192 quoted above. So the major premise of your argument contradicts canon 192. There is no way to interpret Canon 192 to require "a declaratory sentence" in all cases.

    Second, you seem to imply that the acts of a cleric who "loses his office" remain valid. This would turn common sense on it head. Just because the cleric refuses to voluntarily leave the office that that law says he has been removed from, does not give that cleric authority of any sort. His authority comes from the law, not from his physical, illegitimate occupation of the office. To say otherwise, puts a criminal's actions above the law. It is like saying that a squatter could take over my rent house and remodel it however he wants.


    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #301 on: May 22, 2023, 11:32:55 AM »
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  • "The common and general meaning of the word 'admissum' is defined by Lewis & Short as a 'voluntary fault', and only in certain specific instances can it be understood to mean 'crime', when the particular context in which it is used supports that interpretation.

    But the particular context in which you are using the words meets the canonical definition of a crime. The difference between the sin of heresy and the canonical crime of heresy, is that the former only requires an interior act, whereas a crime requires both and interior and exterior act of heresy. 

    When I asked you to show where the Church has teaches that "the public sin of manifest formal heresy" severs a person from the Church by its nature, you quoted Pius XII's teaching that the admissum of heresy severs a person from the Church by its nature.  But "the public sin of manifest formal heresy" requires both a interior act (formal) and exterior (manifest) act of heresy, and therefore meets the canonical definition of a crime

    So, unless you believe heresy by an internal act alone (a thought) severs a person from the Church by its nature, you should be in favor of translating admissum as crime, since that more accurately reflects your opinion.



    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #302 on: May 22, 2023, 11:46:51 AM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, Monsignor Fenton does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".




    Fr. Fenton did not disagree that admissum means crime and neither did any of the other authorities you cited, he just translated it as sin.  As I said earlier, it can be translated as sin, crime, offense, or admission.

    Louis & Short Latin dictionary translates admission as "a wrong done, a trespass, fault, crime."

    Google Translate translates it as "admitted" (admission), crime or fault.

    Glozbe.com provides this translation: "act or practice of admission; crime; fault; trespass".






     






    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #303 on: May 22, 2023, 11:54:10 AM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, Salaverri does not state "and government".  Read it again.  He states "or government".  





    Better read it again more carefully.  Beginning in the second sentence, he says "But formal and manifest heretics, apostates and schismatics, formally and manifestly have broken the social bond of faith AND government established by Christ as essential in his Church."  

    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #304 on: May 22, 2023, 12:03:27 PM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, Salaverri does not state "and government".  Read it again.  He states "or government".  By the term "government", he is referencing "schismatics".  It is true, however, that Salaverri defines "public heretic" as per your quotation.  However, Salaverri also defines "private heretic":



    Just prior to this, he defines and distinguishes between "manifest heretic" and "occult heretic":



    Therefore, in what I provided in my earlier post (see screenshot below), Salaverri clearly means to include both "public manifest heretic" (i.e., a Catholic that openly leaves the Church by joining a heretical sect) AND "private manifest heretic" (i.e., a Catholic that does not openly leave the Catholic Church but shows his heresy outwardly) in his use of the term "heretic" in his thesis that "heretics are not members of the Church".

    A private heretic is not a Catholic who falls into heresy and remains in external communion with the Church.  A private heretic, as opposed to a public heretic, is a baptized person who does not belong to any church or sect.  There are millions of them. Some are fallen away Catholics; others are fallen away Protestants, or Orthodox, who knows what, who no longer affiliate with any church or sect.


    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #305 on: May 22, 2023, 12:12:35 PM »
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  • Public defection from the "Faith" and public defection from the "Church" are NOT the same thing.  Where did you get this false interpretation?  Public defection from the Church (i.e., leaving the Church) is only a TYPE of public defection from the Faith.

    "On page 139 of The Renunciation of an Ecclesiastical Office, Fr. Gerald McDevitt writes: 'The defection of faith must be public. It is to be noted immediately that adherence to or inscription in a non-catholic sect is not required to constitute the publicity that the canon demands.' The Very Rev. H. A. Ayrinhac comments on Canon 2197 in his General Legislation in the New Code of Canon Law (pp. 349-350), that public defection from the faith means: 'Public defection from the faith, by formal heresy or apostasy, with or without affiliation with another religious society. The offense must be public, that is, generally known or liable to become so before long. (Can. 2197)'"

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

    Most canonists maintain that public defection from the faith does require joining or publicly adhering to a sect, since that is how canon law itself describes public defection, but there are a few canonists who do not.  But the act has to be at least as notorious as joining a sect.  Publicly leaving the Church and publicly denouncing the Catholic faith, for example, would be equivalent to joining a sect.  But since we are implicitly discussing sede-vacantism, none of the Popes since Vatican II, including Pope Francis, have committed an act of heresy that is equivalent to leaving the Church and joining a sect. 

    PS. If someone can explain how to post screenshots of pages from books, as Catholic Knight does, I will include them going forward.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #306 on: May 22, 2023, 03:49:47 PM »
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  • Most canonists maintain that public defection from the faith does require joining or publicly adhering to a sect ...

    :facepalm: just when I thought I've heard it all.  So someone who becomes an atheist and joins no sect at all cannot publicly defect from the faith?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #307 on: May 27, 2023, 09:57:13 AM »
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  • But the particular context in which you are using the words meets the canonical definition of a crime. The difference between the sin of heresy and the canonical crime of heresy, is that the former only requires an interior act, whereas a crime requires both and interior and exterior act of heresy. 

    When I asked you to show where the Church has teaches that "the public sin of manifest formal heresy" severs a person from the Church by its nature, you quoted Pius XII's teaching that the admissum of heresy severs a person from the Church by its nature.  But "the public sin of manifest formal heresy" requires both a interior act (formal) and exterior (manifest) act of heresy, and therefore meets the canonical definition of a crime

    So, unless you believe heresy by an internal act alone (a thought) severs a person from the Church by its nature, you should be in favor of translating admissum as crime, since that more accurately reflects your opinion.


    The sin of heresy can be either an interior act alone or it can also be manifested externally.  That the Church defines the external manifestation of heresy as a crime does not detract from the sin of heresy being a sin whether internal alone or manifested externally.  Therefore, interpreting Pope Pius XII's use of the term "admissum" as sin, as do the authors I quoted above, does not in any way detract from the proposition that "the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church".    


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #308 on: May 27, 2023, 09:58:20 AM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, are you John Salza or Robert Siscoe?  Your arguments seem to mimic theirs, which Fr. Paul Kramer has thoroughly refuted in his two volumes of To Deceive the Elect.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #309 on: May 27, 2023, 10:36:02 AM »
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  • Quote
    separates the heretic from the Church
    See this is the complex part of this principle which has to be delved into deeper.  As it's written, it's too general.


    1.  HOW is one separated from the Church?

    Spiritually, obviously, due to sin.  But also, physically separated (i.e. the office is lost)?  This is one of the main things that St Bellarmine and everyone else of his time debated.  Everyone agreed on the "spiritual separation" but they disagreed on the physical separation happening WITHOUT some physical legal, govt act by the Church.

    Conclusion - There is no conclusion.  It's debatable.

    2.  WHEN is one separated from the Church?

    Is it immediately?  Or is there a time period of "correction" as St Paul tells us, is necessary.

    In the case of Martin Luther...when he hung up his 99 heresies on the door of the church, was he immediately separated from the Church?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Spiritually, it probably depends on if he understood what he wrote was heresy, or if he was confused about some points of doctrine (which, at the time, was very corrupted due to corrupt clerics).  This is why the Church has a hearing/trial to distinguish the pertinacity/mindframe of the heretic.  

    After such a hearing occurred, Martin Luther did recant maybe 30-40 of his "issues" so it's not like he was 100% sure/firm on his errors.

    Also, did Martin Luther immediately lose his office of priest/prior (whatever his office was, i'm not sure)?  I don't think he did.  He might have been suspended until the trial/hearing but nothing was lost "immediately".  And his act of heresy was public, manifest, etc.

    Conclusion - again, no conclusion.  It takes an act of the Church to decide these matters.  Canon law has a process.  Even if spiritually, the person is judged by God immediately...but no one can know that "at first".  Only the heretic knows what he believes.  We are human beings, who live in the physical world.  It takes physical action, and human efforts to discern heresy and judge accordingly.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #310 on: May 29, 2023, 06:53:59 AM »
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  • See this is the complex part of this principle which has to be delved into deeper.  As it's written, it's too general.


    1.  HOW is one separated from the Church?

    Spiritually, obviously, due to sin.  But also, physically separated (i.e. the office is lost)?  This is one of the main things that St Bellarmine and everyone else of his time debated.  Everyone agreed on the "spiritual separation" but they disagreed on the physical separation happening WITHOUT some physical legal, govt act by the Church.

    Conclusion - There is no conclusion.  It's debatable.

    2.  WHEN is one separated from the Church?

    Is it immediately?  Or is there a time period of "correction" as St Paul tells us, is necessary.

    In the case of Martin Luther...when he hung up his 99 heresies on the door of the church, was he immediately separated from the Church?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Spiritually, it probably depends on if he understood what he wrote was heresy, or if he was confused about some points of doctrine (which, at the time, was very corrupted due to corrupt clerics).  This is why the Church has a hearing/trial to distinguish the pertinacity/mindframe of the heretic. 

    After such a hearing occurred, Martin Luther did recant maybe 30-40 of his "issues" so it's not like he was 100% sure/firm on his errors.

    Also, did Martin Luther immediately lose his office of priest/prior (whatever his office was, i'm not sure)?  I don't think he did.  He might have been suspended until the trial/hearing but nothing was lost "immediately".  And his act of heresy was public, manifest, etc.

    Conclusion - again, no conclusion.  It takes an act of the Church to decide these matters.  Canon law has a process.  Even if spiritually, the person is judged by God immediately...but no one can know that "at first".  Only the heretic knows what he believes.  We are human beings, who live in the physical world.  It takes physical action, and human efforts to discern heresy and judge accordingly.

    Please affirm or deny the following proposition:

    A Catholic who knowingly and willingly publicly denies a teaching of the Church that must be held with Divine and Catholic Faith, by that very act, is severed from membership in the Catholic Church.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #311 on: May 29, 2023, 10:21:01 AM »
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  • Quote
    A Catholic who knowingly and willingly publicly denies a teaching of the Church that must be held with Divine and Catholic Faith, by that very act, is severed from membership in the Catholic Church.
    Yes.  But...


    ...there are still details in this principle that are debatable.  And that only Church officials, not any priest/laity, can decide.

    1.  "knowingly and willingly and publically".  This can only be determined AFTER THE ACT HAPPENED, not right in the moment.  Martin Luther nailed his 99 thesis to the church door knowingly, willingly and publicly, yet the Church still had meetings and gave him a trial. 

    So none of his "severance" happened immediately.  The spiritual severance (based on his own sin and bad will) may have happened immediately (only he and God knows this) but his temporal/govt/priest severance from the Church, by way of excommunication, only happened AFTER church proceedings and a trial.

    2.  "by that very act".  Again, this can only be known later, by human investigation, conversations, etc.  +Bellarmine refers to this often, when he talks about the Cardinals rebuking a pope, or judging his actions as heretical.

    3.  "Severed from membership".  There are 2 parts to this - the spiritual severance (i.e. sin of heresy, and the internal will of the heretic to reject the Faith) and the human/govt/office severance, which only happens by way of Church actions - i.e. the human/govt/official acts to remove one from office.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #312 on: May 29, 2023, 11:17:28 AM »
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  • Yes.  But...


    ...there are still details in this principle that are debatable.  And that only Church officials, not any priest/laity, can decide.

    That only the Church officials can decide is one fundamental area where you are wrong.  For example, I presume you reject Vatican II and the New Rite of Mass; yet, the Church officials have not yet officially rejected Vatican II as such and the New Rite of Mass as such.  What then is the cause for you rejecting them?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #313 on: May 29, 2023, 11:54:25 AM »
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  • Quote
    That only the Church officials can decide is one fundamental area where you are wrong. 
    No.  Where in canon law does it give ANY LAITY the power/authority to DO ANYTHING?  Hint: it doesn't.


    If non-church officials (i.e. laity, simple priests, and non-jurisdictional bishops) can do x, y, or z, outside of the church hierarchy, then the hierarchy is meaningless.  Either the Church is a monarchy, with authority, or it's some kind of protestant/grass-roots/"personal faith" type of spirituality.  It can't be both.

    The only "personal decision" that the laity, simple priests, non-jurisdictional bishops can make is to "stay away" from error.  Any legal, authoritative, canonical decision is the Church's alone to make, or not make.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #314 on: May 29, 2023, 12:25:08 PM »
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  • Making a practical judgement, based on one's understanding of the Faith and available evidence, for oneself, is on a totally different level than binding others, in conscience and under threat of damnation, to one's opinion.
    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago