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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 56424 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #300 on: May 22, 2023, 11:00:17 AM »
I will post a lengthy commentary on the new code tomorrow that describes the difference between canon 188.4 and 194.2. 

But for now, you are wrong about 194.2.  If the Church has not issued a declaratory sentence, all the acts of the cleric remain valid and he is even entitled to renumeration.  If his acts remain valid, they are legally binding; and if they are legally binding, they proceed from authority.

Your "lengthy commentary" may not be necessary. You seem to be confused about the terminology in the 1983 Code. Let's look more closely at the situation as it is described in the 1983 Code:

1. First the context. We are discussing the loss [amissione] of an ecclesiastical office. If one loses an office, they cannot at the same time possess that office. This is a binary condition from a logical standpoint. When legal claimant to an office loses the office by law, the office becomes legally "vacant."
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Can. 184 §1. An ecclesiastical office is lost by the lapse of a predetermined time, by reaching the age determined by law, by resignation, by transfer, by removal, and by privation.


2. The specific cause that we are considering is that of a "removal" of a person from an "office." A "removal" of the person causes a "loss" of the office. Remember that a "loss" is a binary condition. Legally, one cannot both lose and hold an office a the same time. So, one who is "removed" from office, by definition, no longer legally holds that office.


3. How then can a person be "removed" from an office? The 1983 Code tells us that the person may be removed EITHER by 1) a decree OR 2) by the law itself. These two causes are mutually exclusive. If the "removal" is caused only by "a decree," then it cannot at the same time also be caused "by the law itself." Again, we have a binary condition here.
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Can. 192 A person is removed from office either by a decree issued legitimately by competent authority, without prejudice to rights possibly acquired by contract, or by the law itself according to the norm of can. 194.


4. In our case, we are discussing the second option: a removal of a person from an office by the law itself. Don't forget now, this "removal" causes a "loss" of office that is a binary condition. The person cannot be "removed" and "not removed" at the same time. As such, the office cannot be "vacant" and "not vacant," according to the law, at the same time. That would violate the logical principle of non-contradiction. And the removal discussed in this case DOES NOT REQUIRE A DECREE. The law governing a removal by the law itself is found in Canon 194, which states:
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Can. 194 §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself:
1/ a person who has lost the clerical state;
2/ a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church;
3/ a cleric who has attempted marriage even if only civilly.


5. So, a person who "publicly defects from the Catholic faith" is "removed" from office NOT BY A DECREE but by the law itself, according to Canon 194. However, the person occupying the office might refuse to vacate the office. How does the Church handle that situation? Does it allow a vigilante posse to "enforce" the "removal" that is already legally effective? No, the Church says that it can be "enforced" only after a "declaration of a competent authority." The "loss" has already taken place. The office is "vacant" from a legal perspective. But the office is still occupied by a person who refuses to follow the law. In that case, a "declaration" is required before calling in the people with guns.
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Canon 194 §2. The removal mentioned in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.


6. Now, lets look at your claim quoted above, which I will quote again here:
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But for now, you are wrong about 194.2.  If the Church has not issued a declaratory sentence, all the acts of the cleric remain valid and he is even entitled to renumeration.  If his acts remain valid, they are legally binding; and if they are legally binding, they proceed from authority.

Here is your argument (paraphrased) in a syllogism:

Major Premise: The Church must issue a declaratory sentence to invalidate the acts of a cleric holding any office.
Minor Premise: The Church has not issued a declaratory sentence.
Conclusion: All acts of the previously appointed officeholder continue to be valid and legally binding until a declaration is made.

First, a "declaratory sentence" is not necessary in the case of a condition requiring removal by "the law itself," which is proven by Canon 192 quoted above. So the major premise of your argument contradicts canon 192. There is no way to interpret Canon 192 to require "a declaratory sentence" in all cases.

Second, you seem to imply that the acts of a cleric who "loses his office" remain valid. This would turn common sense on it head. Just because the cleric refuses to voluntarily leave the office that that law says he has been removed from, does not give that cleric authority of any sort. His authority comes from the law, not from his physical, illegitimate occupation of the office. To say otherwise, puts a criminal's actions above the law. It is like saying that a squatter could take over my rent house and remodel it however he wants.


Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #301 on: May 22, 2023, 11:32:55 AM »
"The common and general meaning of the word 'admissum' is defined by Lewis & Short as a 'voluntary fault', and only in certain specific instances can it be understood to mean 'crime', when the particular context in which it is used supports that interpretation.

But the particular context in which you are using the words meets the canonical definition of a crime. The difference between the sin of heresy and the canonical crime of heresy, is that the former only requires an interior act, whereas a crime requires both and interior and exterior act of heresy. 

When I asked you to show where the Church has teaches that "the public sin of manifest formal heresy" severs a person from the Church by its nature, you quoted Pius XII's teaching that the admissum of heresy severs a person from the Church by its nature.  But "the public sin of manifest formal heresy" requires both a interior act (formal) and exterior (manifest) act of heresy, and therefore meets the canonical definition of a crime

So, unless you believe heresy by an internal act alone (a thought) severs a person from the Church by its nature, you should be in favor of translating admissum as crime, since that more accurately reflects your opinion.



Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #302 on: May 22, 2023, 11:46:51 AM »
LaCosaNostra, Monsignor Fenton does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".




Fr. Fenton did not disagree that admissum means crime and neither did any of the other authorities you cited, he just translated it as sin.  As I said earlier, it can be translated as sin, crime, offense, or admission.

Louis & Short Latin dictionary translates admission as "a wrong done, a trespass, fault, crime."

Google Translate translates it as "admitted" (admission), crime or fault.

Glozbe.com provides this translation: "act or practice of admission; crime; fault; trespass".






 






Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #303 on: May 22, 2023, 11:54:10 AM »
LaCosaNostra, Salaverri does not state "and government".  Read it again.  He states "or government".  





Better read it again more carefully.  Beginning in the second sentence, he says "But formal and manifest heretics, apostates and schismatics, formally and manifestly have broken the social bond of faith AND government established by Christ as essential in his Church."  

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #304 on: May 22, 2023, 12:03:27 PM »
LaCosaNostra, Salaverri does not state "and government".  Read it again.  He states "or government".  By the term "government", he is referencing "schismatics".  It is true, however, that Salaverri defines "public heretic" as per your quotation.  However, Salaverri also defines "private heretic":



Just prior to this, he defines and distinguishes between "manifest heretic" and "occult heretic":



Therefore, in what I provided in my earlier post (see screenshot below), Salaverri clearly means to include both "public manifest heretic" (i.e., a Catholic that openly leaves the Church by joining a heretical sect) AND "private manifest heretic" (i.e., a Catholic that does not openly leave the Catholic Church but shows his heresy outwardly) in his use of the term "heretic" in his thesis that "heretics are not members of the Church".

A private heretic is not a Catholic who falls into heresy and remains in external communion with the Church.  A private heretic, as opposed to a public heretic, is a baptized person who does not belong to any church or sect.  There are millions of them. Some are fallen away Catholics; others are fallen away Protestants, or Orthodox, who knows what, who no longer affiliate with any church or sect.