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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 56369 times)

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #295 on: May 22, 2023, 08:51:34 AM »
LaCosaNostra, Salaverri does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".



Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #296 on: May 22, 2023, 09:04:46 AM »
LaCosaNostra, Dom Aelfred Graham, O.S.B., does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".








Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #297 on: May 22, 2023, 09:09:00 AM »
LaCosaNostra, the Vatican does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".



Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #298 on: May 22, 2023, 09:44:51 AM »


Notice that the Salaverri says "formal and manifest heretics ... have broken the social bond of faith and government established by Christ.  By severing the social bond of government, they have cut themselves off from "the framework of the Church" and hence are no longer part of the Church's body.

Here is how Salaverri defines a public heretic four pages earlier:

No one who remains within the framework of the Church (i.e., has not severed the social bond of government) is a "public heretic," or a "formal and manifest heretic," according to the teaching of the theologian that you cited as your authority.



LaCosaNostra, Salaverri does not state "and government".  Read it again.  He states "or government".  By the term "government", he is referencing "schismatics".  It is true, however, that Salaverri defines "public heretic" as per your quotation.  However, Salaverri also defines "private heretic":



Just prior to this, he defines and distinguishes between "manifest heretic" and "occult heretic":



Therefore, in what I provided in my earlier post (see screenshot below), Salaverri clearly means to include both "public manifest heretic" (i.e., a Catholic that openly leaves the Church by joining a heretical sect) AND "private manifest heretic" (i.e., a Catholic that does not openly leave the Catholic Church but shows his heresy outwardly) in his use of the term "heretic" in his thesis that "heretics are not members of the Church".

Note further that in the screenshot below, Salaverri does NOT use the term "public" or "private".  He simply use the terms "formal" and "manifest" to describe "heretic".  Therefore, it is beyond doubt that he is referencing BOTH "public" and "private" heretics. 







Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #299 on: May 22, 2023, 10:04:26 AM »
The two canons are different.  With c. 188.4, the office falls vacant ipso facto if a cleric publicly defects from the faith (leaves the Church). 

Per canon 194.2, public defection from the faith results in the loss of office, but the actual loss of office does not happen unless the fact of the public defection has been declared by the proper ecclesiastical authority.  The declaration is a condition that must be satisfied for the act that causes the loss of office (public defection from the faith) to have any legal effect.

Public defection from the "Faith" and public defection from the "Church" are NOT the same thing.  Where did you get this false interpretation?  Public defection from the Church (i.e., leaving the Church) is only a TYPE of public defection from the Faith. 

"On page 139 of The Renunciation of an Ecclesiastical Office, Fr. Gerald McDevitt writes: 'The defection of faith must be public. It is to be noted immediately that adherence to or inscription in a non-catholic sect is not required to constitute the publicity that the canon demands.' The Very Rev. H. A. Ayrinhac comments on Canon 2197 in his General Legislation in the New Code of Canon Law (pp. 349-350), that public defection from the faith means: 'Public defection from the faith, by formal heresy or apostasy, with or without affiliation with another religious society. The offense must be public, that is, generally known or liable to become so before long. (Can. 2197)'"

Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.