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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 27774 times)

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Offline LaCosaNostra

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #285 on: May 21, 2023, 10:25:33 PM »
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  • So both 1917 and 1983 Canon Law provide that a public heretic loses his office automatically, but the physical “enforcement” of that vacancy (kicking the bum out) requires a “warning” or a “declaration” by Church authorities. There seems to be no real difference between 1917 and 1983 in this matter.

    The two canons are different.  With c. 188.4, the office falls vacant ipso facto if a cleric publicly defects from the faith (leaves the Church).  

    Per canon 194.2, public defection from the faith results in the loss of office, but the actual loss of office does not happen unless the fact of the public defection has been declared by the proper ecclesiastical authority.  The declaration is a condition that must be satisfied for the act that causes the loss of office (public defection from the faith) to have any legal effect. 


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #286 on: May 21, 2023, 10:27:32 PM »
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  • You defined heresy, and you showed what happens if someone publicly defects from the faith, but you didn't define public defection from the faith.

    The phrase "defection from the faith" is simply a catch-all for the individual sins of apostasy or heresy. The word publicly or manifest refer to the sin being objective not subjective, in the external forum not the internal forum. 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_and_external_forum


    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #287 on: May 21, 2023, 10:31:30 PM »
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  • The phrase "defection from the faith" is simply a catch-all for the individual sins of apostasy or heresy. The word publicly or manifest refer to the sin being objective not subjective, in the external forum not the internal forum.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_and_external_forum

    Not good enough. You did great in showing how the Church defines heresy, and what she says happens if a cleric publicly defects from the faith, then you made up your own definition of public defection from the faith.  You need to show what the Church means by that phrase.  I'll give you a hint.  You can find it somewhere around canon 1325 of the 1917 Code. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #288 on: May 21, 2023, 10:40:13 PM »
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  • The two canons are different.  With c. 188.4, the office falls vacant ipso facto if a cleric publicly defects from the faith (leaves the Church). 

    Per canon 194.2, public defection from the faith results in the loss of office, but the actual loss of office does not happen unless the fact of the public defection has been declared by the proper ecclesiastical authority.  The declaration is a condition that must be satisfied for the act that causes the loss of office (public defection from the faith) to have any legal effect.

    If you read carefully, you will see that a "vacancy"/"removal" is not the same thing as "enforcement"/"deposed." An office becomes legally "vacant" and the person is "removed," in the eyes of the law (de jure), when the officeholder publicly defects from the faith. However, he may still de facto occupy the office. Regardless of the de facto situation, the seat is legally "vacant" and the person is "removed" the moment he "defects from the faith," and he would have no legitimate authority over anyone.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #289 on: May 21, 2023, 10:46:08 PM »
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  • Not good enough. You did great in showing how the Church defines heresy, and what she says happens if a cleric publicly defects from the faith, then you made up your own definition of public defection from the faith.  You need to show what the Church means by that phrase.  I'll give you a hint.  You can find it somewhere around canon 1325 of the 1917 Code.

    Since you seem to have the answer...


    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #290 on: May 21, 2023, 11:13:45 PM »
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  • If you read carefully, you will see that a "vacancy"/"removal" is not the same thing as "enforcement"/"deposed." An office becomes legally "vacant" and the person is "removed," in the eyes of the law (de jure), when the officeholder publicly defects from the faith. However, he may still de facto occupy the office. Regardless of the de facto situation, the seat is legally "vacant" and the person is "removed" the moment he "defects from the faith," and he would have no legitimate authority over anyone.

    I will post a lengthy commentary on the new code tomorrow that describes the difference between canon 188.4 and 194.2.   

    But for now, you are wrong about 194.2.  If the Church has not issued a declaratory sentence, all the acts of the cleric remain valid and he is even entitled to renumeration.  If his acts remain valid, they are legally binding; and if they are legally binding, they proceed from authority. 

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #291 on: May 21, 2023, 11:16:39 PM »
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  • There was a mix-up in the smoke signals, witnessed by the FBI, newspapers, and people, then they get fat old Freemasonic Roncalli, who could only have a possibility of going to Heaven, if he died in his sleep, because when he was awake he was always compromising with the Communists, and then the rest of the Vatican II experience.

    "Pastoralitum Ridicularumque vel Nobis"

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #292 on: May 22, 2023, 08:00:38 AM »
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  • The page gives your definition.  I am look for the Church's definition of a public manifest formal heretic.



    Pius XII didn't used the term sin, or the phrase "public manifest formal heresy."  He used the term admissum, which is a general term that can be sin, crime, or offense.  The reason he used that term specifically is because there are two schools of thought concerning what is required to be a member of the Church.  One holds that the external bonds alone suffice, the other maintains the external bonds and interior faith are necessary to be a true member of the Church. Since sin destroys interior faith, if Pius XII had used the word sin - the sin of heresy severs a person from the Church by it nature -  he would have been seen as teaching the latter opinion.  To avoid the appearance of weighing in on this centuries old debate, he used the ambiguous term admissum.

    But let's see what Pius XII says in the very next paragraph:


    Pius XII: "24. Let every one then abhor sin (peccatum), which defiles the mystical members of our Redeemer; but if anyone unhappily falls and his obstinacy has not made him unworthy of communion with the faithful, let him be received with great love, and let eager charity see in him a weak member of Jesus Christ. For, as the Bishop of Hippo remarks, it is better "to be cured within the Church's community than to be cut off from its body as incurable members. ' (August., Serm., CXXXVII).

    If a person falls into sin without, yet is obstinacy has not made him unworthy of communion with the faithful (had retained the external bonds), he is to be received with greater love, for, as Augustine teaches, it is better "to be cured within the Church's community than to be cut off from its body as incurable members."

    To gain insight into the mind of Pius XII, we should ask who St. Augustine was referring to in the quote he cited? Was he referring to someone who was only guilty of a moral offense, or was he referring to those who openly attacking the faith, and therefore have apparently fallen into the sin of heresy, yet remained in communion with the Church?  It was the latter.  In the quote Pius XII cited, the Bishop of Hippo is speaking of the Pelagians who had not yet separated from the Church and joined a Pelagian sect.  Here is the full quote in context:

    St. August., Sermin, CXXXVII:  “But because he went off, having been found guilty and detested by the Church rather than corrected and subdued, I was afraid that it was perhaps he himself who was trying to disturb your faith, and for this reason I thought I should mention his name.  But it makes no difference whether it is he or others who partake of his error.  For there are more than we would expect. And where they are not refuted, they win over others to their sect, and they are becoming so numerous that I do not know where they will turn upYet we prefer that they be healed within the framework of the Church rather than cut off from its body like incurable members, at least if the very gravity of the situation permits this.”

    So, when Pius XII said "if anyone unhappily falls and his obstinacy has not made him unworthy of communion with the faithful, let him be received with great love, and let eager charity see in him a weak member of Jesus Christ," he was including those who fall into errors against the faith, and who spread them openly.  As long as they remain within the framework of the Church, they remain part of the Church's body.  And remaining part of the body suffices for a person to hold office in the Church.


    "The common and general meaning of the word 'admissum' is defined by Lewis & Short as a 'voluntary fault', and only in certain specific instances can it be understood to mean 'crime', when the particular context in which it is used supports that interpretation. Salza & Siscoe gratuitously interpret the term as used in Mystici Corporis to mean 'offense” as in 'crime' – a canonical delict or transgression of ecclesiastical law which, in the case of heresy by ecclesiastical authority incurs the penalty of excommunication latæ sententiæ. It is quite impossible, and in fact, contra rationem, for the word 'admissum' to be understood as meaning only the act of of heresy, schism, or apostasy suapte natura in virtue of its being a canonical delict, separates a man from the Church, but not that the manifest external sin per se by its very nature accomplishes that separation in the context that it is used in this passage of Mystici Corporis, because that would render the meaning of the passage unintelligible and entirely irrational.  

    "Salza & Siscoe go to great lengths to insist that in Mystici Corporis, the words 'admissa' and 'admissum' mean, 'crime(s)', and not 'sin(s)'; but when you examine the syntax of text very carefully, it makes no difference how you translate the terms. Read the Latin text very carefully – it says: «And thus not every fault (admissum: sin, fault, crime), even a gravely evil deed (scelus: an evil deed; a wicked, heinous, or impious action; a crime, sin, enormity) does such – as schism, heresy, and apostasy do – by their very nature separate a man from unity of the body the Church.» There it is: Others are separated from the Church by excommunication – «by the legitimate authority of the Church» for having committed excommunicatable penal offenses, i.e. crimes; as opposed to those who «miserably separate themselves from union with the body» of the Church by heresy, schism, or apostasy, which separate them not for their being crimes punishable by the authority of the Church, but because they are of the nature of sins opposed to the unity of the Church; which therefore, according to their nature (suapte natura) separate the perpetrator from the body of the Church. In Canon Law, it pertains to the nature of a crime per se that it is a penal violation – a violation of a law or precept that is of ecclesiasticasl character; and, if the transgression is public, and if there is added to the law or precept the penal cenure of excommunication, it results in the separation of the offender from the Church by means of the penalty of excommunication, incurred or inflicted by the authority of the Church. Pius XII teaches, (in conformity with the constant teaching of the universal magisterium), that heresy, schism and apostasy, are the sole exceptions, because, although they in fact happen to be crimes; heretics, schismatics, or apostates are not separated from the body of the Church 'by legitimate authority', i.e. because they committed crimes; but because these sins by their very nature are directly and per se opposed to the unity of the Church; and accordingly, schismatics, heretics and apostates have <<miserably separated themselves from the unity of the Body» of the Church (a Corporis compage semet ipsos misere separarunt). The reason why this is so (as is explained below) is because the specific nature of each of these sins, i.e. of heresy, schism, (and a fortiori apostasy), is such that they directly and per se separate one from the unity of the Church. (IIª-IIae q. 39 a. 1 ad 3) On the other hand, criminal acts considered under their formal aspect as crimes, i.e., according to the nature of crimes, do not directly and per se separate one from the Church; but according to the nature of crimes as such, it is only by means of juridical authority that the separation would take place, being that they are crimes carrying the penalty of excommunication."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #293 on: May 22, 2023, 08:37:35 AM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, Monsignor Fenton does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".



    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #294 on: May 22, 2023, 08:45:09 AM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, Van Noort does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".




    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #295 on: May 22, 2023, 08:51:34 AM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, Salaverri does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".




    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #296 on: May 22, 2023, 09:04:46 AM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, Dom Aelfred Graham, O.S.B., does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".







    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #297 on: May 22, 2023, 09:09:00 AM »
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  • LaCosaNostra, the Vatican does not agree with you that "admissum" means "crime".



    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #298 on: May 22, 2023, 09:44:51 AM »
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  • Notice that the Salaverri says "formal and manifest heretics ... have broken the social bond of faith and government established by Christ.  By severing the social bond of government, they have cut themselves off from "the framework of the Church" and hence are no longer part of the Church's body.

    Here is how Salaverri defines a public heretic four pages earlier:

    No one who remains within the framework of the Church (i.e., has not severed the social bond of government) is a "public heretic," or a "formal and manifest heretic," according to the teaching of the theologian that you cited as your authority.



    LaCosaNostra, Salaverri does not state "and government".  Read it again.  He states "or government".  By the term "government", he is referencing "schismatics".  It is true, however, that Salaverri defines "public heretic" as per your quotation.  However, Salaverri also defines "private heretic":



    Just prior to this, he defines and distinguishes between "manifest heretic" and "occult heretic":



    Therefore, in what I provided in my earlier post (see screenshot below), Salaverri clearly means to include both "public manifest heretic" (i.e., a Catholic that openly leaves the Church by joining a heretical sect) AND "private manifest heretic" (i.e., a Catholic that does not openly leave the Catholic Church but shows his heresy outwardly) in his use of the term "heretic" in his thesis that "heretics are not members of the Church".

    Note further that in the screenshot below, Salaverri does NOT use the term "public" or "private".  He simply use the terms "formal" and "manifest" to describe "heretic".  Therefore, it is beyond doubt that he is referencing BOTH "public" and "private" heretics. 







    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #299 on: May 22, 2023, 10:04:26 AM »
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  • The two canons are different.  With c. 188.4, the office falls vacant ipso facto if a cleric publicly defects from the faith (leaves the Church). 

    Per canon 194.2, public defection from the faith results in the loss of office, but the actual loss of office does not happen unless the fact of the public defection has been declared by the proper ecclesiastical authority.  The declaration is a condition that must be satisfied for the act that causes the loss of office (public defection from the faith) to have any legal effect.

    Public defection from the "Faith" and public defection from the "Church" are NOT the same thing.  Where did you get this false interpretation?  Public defection from the Church (i.e., leaving the Church) is only a TYPE of public defection from the Faith. 

    "On page 139 of The Renunciation of an Ecclesiastical Office, Fr. Gerald McDevitt writes: 'The defection of faith must be public. It is to be noted immediately that adherence to or inscription in a non-catholic sect is not required to constitute the publicity that the canon demands.' The Very Rev. H. A. Ayrinhac comments on Canon 2197 in his General Legislation in the New Code of Canon Law (pp. 349-350), that public defection from the faith means: 'Public defection from the faith, by formal heresy or apostasy, with or without affiliation with another religious society. The offense must be public, that is, generally known or liable to become so before long. (Can. 2197)'"

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.