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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 56488 times)

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #285 on: May 21, 2023, 10:25:33 PM »
So both 1917 and 1983 Canon Law provide that a public heretic loses his office automatically, but the physical “enforcement” of that vacancy (kicking the bum out) requires a “warning” or a “declaration” by Church authorities. There seems to be no real difference between 1917 and 1983 in this matter.

The two canons are different.  With c. 188.4, the office falls vacant ipso facto if a cleric publicly defects from the faith (leaves the Church).  

Per canon 194.2, public defection from the faith results in the loss of office, but the actual loss of office does not happen unless the fact of the public defection has been declared by the proper ecclesiastical authority.  The declaration is a condition that must be satisfied for the act that causes the loss of office (public defection from the faith) to have any legal effect. 

Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #286 on: May 21, 2023, 10:27:32 PM »
You defined heresy, and you showed what happens if someone publicly defects from the faith, but you didn't define public defection from the faith.

The phrase "defection from the faith" is simply a catch-all for the individual sins of apostasy or heresy. The word publicly or manifest refer to the sin being objective not subjective, in the external forum not the internal forum. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_and_external_forum


Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #287 on: May 21, 2023, 10:31:30 PM »
The phrase "defection from the faith" is simply a catch-all for the individual sins of apostasy or heresy. The word publicly or manifest refer to the sin being objective not subjective, in the external forum not the internal forum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_and_external_forum

Not good enough. You did great in showing how the Church defines heresy, and what she says happens if a cleric publicly defects from the faith, then you made up your own definition of public defection from the faith.  You need to show what the Church means by that phrase.  I'll give you a hint.  You can find it somewhere around canon 1325 of the 1917 Code. 

Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #288 on: May 21, 2023, 10:40:13 PM »
The two canons are different.  With c. 188.4, the office falls vacant ipso facto if a cleric publicly defects from the faith (leaves the Church). 

Per canon 194.2, public defection from the faith results in the loss of office, but the actual loss of office does not happen unless the fact of the public defection has been declared by the proper ecclesiastical authority.  The declaration is a condition that must be satisfied for the act that causes the loss of office (public defection from the faith) to have any legal effect.

If you read carefully, you will see that a "vacancy"/"removal" is not the same thing as "enforcement"/"deposed." An office becomes legally "vacant" and the person is "removed," in the eyes of the law (de jure), when the officeholder publicly defects from the faith. However, he may still de facto occupy the office. Regardless of the de facto situation, the seat is legally "vacant" and the person is "removed" the moment he "defects from the faith," and he would have no legitimate authority over anyone.

Offline Angelus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #289 on: May 21, 2023, 10:46:08 PM »
Not good enough. You did great in showing how the Church defines heresy, and what she says happens if a cleric publicly defects from the faith, then you made up your own definition of public defection from the faith.  You need to show what the Church means by that phrase.  I'll give you a hint.  You can find it somewhere around canon 1325 of the 1917 Code.

Since you seem to have the answer...