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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41468 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #270 on: May 20, 2023, 07:07:46 PM »
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    There are various ideas, both public facts and also rumors and similar things, that are adduced as evidence of the Siri thesis. That is what the author of the paper addressed. If it's not possible to refute an idea by refuting the evidence used to support it, then I'm not sure how you would do so.

    For example, the most public fact used to support the Siri thesis is the fact that white smoke came out of the chimney for five minutes, followed by black smoke. This has been used by people to argue that it means a pope was elected.

    The author refutes this by saying it is false to suppose that white smoke indicates a papal election. The reality is more complex. The true signals are as follows:

    Positive result: white smoke
    Negative result: white smoke followed by black smoke

    This information comes straight from the man in charge of the conclave, who was in charge of three conclaves all together: Pius XI, Pius XII and Roncalli. His name was Prince Chigi, and he was an Italian aristocrat. He gave a simple explanation for how the smoke works. Basically, the white smoke comes from burning the ballots. The black smoke results from putting wet straw into the ballots while they are burning. You cannot simply ignite wet straw (Prince Chigi explained) because being wet it will not light. So, when no pope is elected in a ballot, the ballots themselves must first be burned, causing white smoke, and then the straw must be added, making the smoke black.

    And what was the type of smoke that came out on that Sunday afternoon in 1958? It was white and then black -- the signal for a null election result.

    Chigi went on to explain that the correct way to interpret the smoke is that you have to wait until the smoke stops coming out before you call it, to be sure that black smoke never comes out. Only after the smoke stops flowing can you know what the true result is. The priest announcing the result on the radio failed to do this and announced that a pope had been elected while the smoke was still flowing; I believe this was the first ballot of the conclave so he would not have a lot of experience on how this works yet.

    The exact same mistake had been made in 1939 when Pius XII was elected. The announcer called it too early, said a pope was elected, the bells rang, the Swiss Guards went to their place, etc., but then the black smoke came out. Later, Pius XII came out of the conclave, and no one questions the validity of his election. The author of the article provided photographs of scans of newspapers that reported on this.

    All of this makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise, what? The cardinal at the stove started burning white smoke and then some modernist cardinal snuck up behind him and put him in a full Nelson while other modernist cardinals started stuffing wet straw into the stove -- all in a matter of two minutes or so? Or what exactly is the scenario that Siri theorists think happened?

    I guess people could say Prince Chigi is part of some sort of conspiracy. This makes little sense to me because this guy was a layman, was not in the conclave, and was not part of Vatican 2. He had been in two conclaves before 1958 and had been trusted by true popes. What motive would he have to be part of a modernist conspiracy? And what evidence is there that he promoted modernism anyway?

    Good summary of some of the salient points, Yeti.


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #271 on: May 20, 2023, 08:47:51 PM »
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  • Quote
    Do you hold Jorge Bergoglio to be an antipope?
    :confused:  He's not dead yet.  His conversion, however unlikely, is still possible.


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #272 on: May 20, 2023, 10:32:29 PM »
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  • You really have to laugh your ass off, every time Loudestmouth destroys the Church under the pretext of saving it.  He's crazier than a rat in a tin shithouse.

    Sean (a.k.a. Your Petulance),

    Your ad hominem tirades are tiring.  Grow a set.  And take your tantrums outback.  Play with your children in the sandbox.  Cheers.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #273 on: May 21, 2023, 06:43:14 AM »
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  • :confused:  He's not dead yet.  His conversion, however unlikely, is still possible.

    Please answer “yes”, “no”, or “I am not sure” to my question.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #274 on: May 21, 2023, 06:45:20 AM »
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  • And I don't think "Mystici Corporis" did any of this.  It was not a doctrinal encyclical.

    Mystici Corporis was not a doctrinal encyclical?  Really?  Then what was it?


    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #275 on: May 21, 2023, 01:51:49 PM »
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  • Meg, you are resisting the meaning of "suapte natura".  In your wrong interpretation, "suapte natura" does not apply to the pope in regards to the effect of the sin of public heresy.  You are resisting what is in the very definition of "suapte natura", that is, it applies in ALL cases.  Abortion is "suapte natura" evil (i.e., in ALL cases).  Likewise, the public sin of manifest formal heresy "suapte natura" separates the heretic from the Church (i.e., in ALL cases).

    How does the Church define "the public sin of manifest formal heresy"?  Obviously, we have to know the definition of the term before we can determine if someone meets the definition.  And where does she teach that the public sin of manifest formal heresy separates a person from the Church by its nature? 

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #276 on: May 21, 2023, 03:17:22 PM »
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  • How does the Church define "the public sin of manifest formal heresy"?  Obviously, we have to know the definition of the term before we can determine if someone meets the definition.  And where does she teach that the public sin of manifest formal heresy separates a person from the Church by its nature?

    Look at this website page for the definition of "public manifest formal heresy".  

    In regards to your second question, Pope Pius XII, in his encyclical Mystici Corporis, states the following:

    “Siquidem non omne admissum, etsi grave scelus, eiusmodi est ut — sicut schisma, vel haeresis, vel apostasia faciunt — suapte natura hominem ab Ecclesiae Corpore separet
    .”

    English translation of the above Latin:

    “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23) [Italics mine]

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #277 on: May 21, 2023, 03:31:51 PM »
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  • The screenshot above is taken from a treatise on the Church by Fr. Joachim Salaverri, S.J., published as part of the dogmatic theology manual called Sacrae Theologiae Summa, which bears an Imprimatur date of August 27, 1955. The Latin original was translated by Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #278 on: May 21, 2023, 06:03:39 PM »
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  • .

    There are various ideas, both public facts and also rumors and similar things, that are adduced as evidence of the Siri thesis. That is what the author of the paper addressed. If it's not possible to refute an idea by refuting the evidence used to support it, then I'm not sure how you would do so.

    For example, the most public fact used to support the Siri thesis is the fact that white smoke came out of the chimney for five minutes, followed by black smoke. This has been used by people to argue that it means a pope was elected.

    The author refutes this by saying it is false to suppose that white smoke indicates a papal election. The reality is more complex. The true signals are as follows:

    Positive result: white smoke
    Negative result: white smoke followed by black smoke

    This information comes straight from the man in charge of the conclave, who was in charge of three conclaves all together: Pius XI, Pius XII and Roncalli. His name was Prince Chigi, and he was an Italian aristocrat. He gave a simple explanation for how the smoke works. Basically, the white smoke comes from burning the ballots. The black smoke results from putting wet straw into the ballots while they are burning. You cannot simply ignite wet straw (Prince Chigi explained) because being wet it will not light. So, when no pope is elected in a ballot, the ballots themselves must first be burned, causing white smoke, and then the straw must be added, making the smoke black.

    And what was the type of smoke that came out on that Sunday afternoon in 1958? It was white and then black -- the signal for a null election result.

    Chigi went on to explain that the correct way to interpret the smoke is that you have to wait until the smoke stops coming out before you call it, to be sure that black smoke never comes out. Only after the smoke stops flowing can you know what the true result is. The priest announcing the result on the radio failed to do this and announced that a pope had been elected while the smoke was still flowing; I believe this was the first ballot of the conclave so he would not have a lot of experience on how this works yet.

    The exact same mistake had been made in 1939 when Pius XII was elected. The announcer called it too early, said a pope was elected, the bells rang, the Swiss Guards went to their place, etc., but then the black smoke came out. Later, Pius XII came out of the conclave, and no one questions the validity of his election. The author of the article provided photographs of scans of newspapers that reported on this.

    All of this makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise, what? The cardinal at the stove started burning white smoke and then some modernist cardinal snuck up behind him and put him in a full Nelson while other modernist cardinals started stuffing wet straw into the stove -- all in a matter of two minutes or so? Or what exactly is the scenario that Siri theorists think happened?

    I guess people could say Prince Chigi is part of some sort of conspiracy. This makes little sense to me because this guy was a layman, was not in the conclave, and was not part of Vatican 2. He had been in two conclaves before 1958 and had been trusted by true popes. What motive would he have to be part of a modernist conspiracy? And what evidence is there that he promoted modernism anyway?

    Utterly idiotic.  As I wrote in my debunking of the stupidity, the book cherry-picks out of context one or two clues about what happened at those conclaves but ignores a lot of the other evidence.  In 1958, there was no matter of "two minutes or so", but THIRTY MINUTES where the smoke was wrong.  You don't even know the basic facts.  This clown who wrote the paper admitted his bias and his agenda early on, and it shows throughout his nonsense.  Ironically, this fallacy is known as strawman, where you pick out a few details about your opponents arguments, take them out of context and distort them, and then claim you've proven your argument.

    From the site that cannot be posted here (with my comments):
    Quote
    On October 26, 1958, white smoke was seen emerging from the Sistine Chapel.  White smoke indicates that a new Pope has been elected.  But no Pope emerged.  This was reported by newspapers throughout the world and heard on radio.  Cardinals were even seen from the windows of the apostolic palace waving to the crowd – something not permitted if the conclave is still in session.  They, too, thought a Pope had been elected.  Here is a newspaper report from Oct. 27, 1958:

    "VATICAN CITY (AP) - Cardinals balloted Sunday without electing a pope. A mix-up in smoke signals made it appear for about half an hour that Pius XII's successor had been chosen. For a time 200,000 Romans and tourists in huge Saint Peter's Square were certain the church had a new pontiff. Millions of others who listened to radios throughout Italy and Europe also were certain. They were certain. They heard the Vatican speaker shout exultantly: 'A pope is elected..’

    "The scene around the Vatican was one of incredible confusion. White smoke from a little chimney atop the Vatican is the traditional signal announcing the election of a new pope. Black smoke indicates failure. Twice during the day smoke billowed from the chimney. At noon the smoke at first came white but it quickly turned unquestionably black. [normal white->black] This was the sign the cardinals had failed to elect on the first two ballots, at nightfall white smoke billowed from the slender chimney for a full five minutes. For all the outside world knew, a new pontiff had been chosen.

    "Clouds of smoke were caught in search lights trained on the Sistine Chapel chimney. 'Bianco! Bianco!' roared many in the crowd. 'White, white.'

    "The Vatican Radio announced the smoke was white. The announcer declared the cardinals at that moment probably were going through the rites of adoration for a new supreme pontiff. For a long time Vatican Radio stuck to its insistence the smoke was white.

    Even high Vatican officials were fooled. Callori di Vignale, governor of the conclave, and Sigismondo Chigi, the conclave Marshall, rushed to take up the positions assigned to them. The Palatine Guard was called from its barracks and ordered to prepare to go to St. Peter's Basilica for (the) announcement of the new pope's name. But the guard was ordered back to barracks before it reached the square. The Swiss Guard was also alerted.

    "Chigi, in an interview with the Italian radio, said uncertainty reigned in the palace. He added that this confusion persisted even after the smoke had subsided and until assurances were received from within the conclave that black smoke was intended. He said he had been at three other conclaves and never before seen smoke as varied in color as Sunday's. He told newsmen later he would arrange to have the cardinals informed of Sunday's smoke confusion in the hope that something can be done to remedy the situation Monday. [from Chigi himself, debunking the fact that this was normal]

    "Priests and others working within the Vatican grounds saw the white smoke. They started to cheer. They waved kerchiefs enthusiastically, and figures of conclavists – cardinal's assistants – in the windows of the apostolic palace waved back. Possibly they, too, believed a pope had been elected.

    "The crowd waited in agony of suspense. Any pope elected would ordinarily appear on the balcony within twenty minutes. The crowd waited a full half hour [not the matter of a couple minutes as alleged] now wondering whether the smoke was meant to be black or white. Doubt set in swiftly. Many in the vast crowd began to drift away. But still there was confusion. News media had flashed around the world the word that a new pope had been chosen.

    “Telephone calls poured into the Vatican, jamming its exchange. As time wore on and doubts increased, the callers all asked one question: "Black or white?"

    "After a half hour, radios began to chatter excitedly that the answer was still uncertain. Only well after the time when a new pope should have appeared on the balcony above St. Peter's Square was it certain that the voting would have to resume Monday at 10 a.m. (3 a.m. CST). The crowd now aware of this, dissipated quickly. Grayish wisps of smoke still spiraled from the chapel chimney..." (Cardinals Fail To Elect Pope In 4 Ballots; Mix-up In Smoke Signals Causes 2 False Reports," The Houston Post, October 27, 1958, Section 1, pages 1 & 7.)

    [Now more evidence.]

    This white smoke clearly indicated the election of the new Pope; but something strange had occurred inside the Sistine Chapel which prevented the newly elected Pope from appearing, and which left the crowd – and the waiting world – confused and bewildered.  It was only two days later that Angelo Roncalli [John XXIII] was elected, and after his election John XXIII held a mysterious multi-hour post-election meeting with all the participants in the conclave. Why did John XXIII have to hold this post-election meeting?  Did it concern the first set of white smoke and the election of the real Pope?

    “John XXIII asked the cardinals to remain in the conclave another night instead of leaving immediately as was customary…to caution them again against revealing the secrets of his election to outsiders...” (Alden Hatch, A Man Named John, NY, NY: Hawthorn Books Inc., 1963, p. 163.)

    “After greeting and blessing the cheering throng in St. Peter's Square . . . John XXIII ordered the Cardinals not to disperse. He wished to meet with them in secret. This was a burden on several of the Cardinals who were in their nineties and in failing health, but in deference to the new Pope they all stayed. It must have been a very sensitive meeting, for when Secretary of State Tardini tried to enter, mistakenly believing the conclave was over, he was promptly excommunicated by France's Cardinal Tisserant.” (Mark Fellows, Fatima in Twilight, p. 154)

    The mystery behind the white smoke and the secret post-election meeting of the 1958 Conclave may not have been uncovered if it were not for Mr. Scortesco.  Scortesco was the cousin of two members of the Vatican’s Noble Guard, including the President of the Noble Guard, which was responsible for guarding the conclaves of 1958 and 1963 and making sure that no communication occurred with the outside.  Scortesco revealed the following in a published letter:

    Scortesco: “In the case of John XXIII (1958) and of Paul VI (1963), there were communications with the outside.  It was thus known that there were several ballots in the first conclave [1958] which resulted in the election of Cardinal Tedeschini and in the second [1963], Cardinal Siri.” (Excerpt from the French Newsletter, Introibo, No. 61, July-August-September, 1988, Association Noel Pinot, Angers, France, p. 3.)

    Scortesco obtained this shocking information from members of the Noble Guard.  The letter was published in Introibo. And Scortesco was found burned alive in his bed shortly after the publication of this letter.  So Scortesco, prior to being knocked off, revealed that Cardinal Tedeschini, not Antipope John XXIII, was actually elected first in 1958.  And Cardinal Siri, not Antipope Paul VI, was elected first in 1963.

    In the letter quoted above, Scortesco also mentioned communication with the “outside.”  His later writings indicate that this communication involved the B’nai Brith (Jєωιѕн Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ).  If communications with the “outside” unlawfully influence a Papal election, this means that such an election is invalid.  The “outside” communication with the Freemasons most probably prevented Tedeschini and Siri from having the free ability to accept their elections, probably by various threats, including death.  The Communists and the Freemasons knew that neither Siri nor Tedeschini would go along with their evil attempts to destroy the Catholic Church; so they had to block their elections.  If the “outside” communication mentioned by Scortesco did influence Tedeschini and Siri from having the free ability to accept their elections, then the subsequent elections of Roncalli [John XXIII] and Montini [Paul VI] were absolutely invalid for that fact alone.

    "...A valid Abdication of the Pope must be a free act, hence a forced resignation of the papacy would be null and void, as more than one ecclesiastical decree has declared.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, v. 1, 1907, p. 32.)

    "Resignation is invalid by law if it was made out of grave fear unjustly inflicted, fraud, substantial error, or simony" (1917 Code of Canon Law, Canon 185).

    "It may be noted at once, with [the canonist] Wernz, that a papal election held outside of a properly organized conclave is canonically null and void" (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04192a.htm).

    Besides Scortesco’s admission that Cardinal Tedeschini was elected in 1958, and Cardinal Siri in 1963, there is evidence showing that Cardinal Siri was also elected before Cardinal Tedeschini and Angelo Roncalli [John XXIII] in 1958.  In other words, Cardinal Siri wasn’t only elected in 1963, as Scortesco revealed, but also in 1958.  Adding credence to this is the fact that the phenomenon of the false-smoke-signals occurred in both 1958 and 1963!  According to The Sheboygan Press of June 20, 1963, the white-smoke/black-smoke phenomenon-of-confusion occurred for 8 minutes in the 1963 conclave.  The false-smoke-signal-phenomenon occurred in both conclaves precisely because the same thing happened in both: a true Pope was elected only to be intimidated into not accepting the office so that the enemies of the Church could implant their own man.

    According to a knowledgeable Italian priest who had conferred with Cardinal Siri, as well as U.S. intelligence docuмents (see below), a conservative bloc of Cardinals had been successful in electing Siri on the fourth ballot of the first day of the conclave, October 26, 1958.  This election of Siri on the fourth ballot in 1958 was when the white smoke emerged.

    Former FBI Consultant Acknowledges Siri’s Election

    Former FBI consultant Paul L. Williams cites declassified U.S. intelligence docuмents showing that Cardinal Siri was elected Pope Gregory XVII at the conclave that, two days later, produced John XXIII.  In 2003, Paul L. Williams published a book called The Vatican Exposed: Money, Murder, and the Mafia (Prometheus Books). Williams, who is not a Catholic, asserts:

    “In 1954 Count Della Torre, editor of the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, warned [Pope] Pius XII of [Cardinal Angelo] Roncalli's Communist sympathies. Other members of the ‘Black Nobility’ expressed similar concerns.[5]

    “Nor did Roncalli [later known as "Pope John XXIII"] escape the attention of the FBI and CIA. The agencies began to accuмulate thick files on him and the questionable activities of other ‘progressives’ within the Vatican, including Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini (the future Paul VI).
    [...]

    “Pius XII had appointed Cardinal Giuseppe Siri as his desired successor.[7] Siri was rabidly anti-Communist, an intransigent traditionalist in matters of church doctrine, and a skilled bureaucrat. . . .

    “In 1958 [on October 26], when the cardinals were locked away in the Sistine Chapel to elect a new pope, mysterious events began to unfold. On the third ballot, Siri, according to FBI sources, obtained the necessary votes and was elected as Pope Gregory XVII.[8] White smoke poured from the chimney of the chapel to inform the faithful that a new pope had been chosen. The news was announced with joy at 6 P.M. on Vatican radio. The announcer said, "The smoke is white. . . . There is absolutely no doubt. A pope has been elected."[9] . . .

    “But the new pope failed to appear. Question began to arise whether the smoke was white or gray. To quell such doubts, Monsignor Santaro, secretary of the Conclave of Cardinals, informed the press that the smoke, indeed, had been white and that a new pope had been elected. The waiting continued. By evening Vatican radio announced that the results remained uncertain. On October 27, 1958, the Houston Post headlined: ‘Cardinals Fail to elect pope in 4 Ballots: Mix-Up in Smoke Signals Cause False Reports.’[10]

    But the reports had been valid. On the fourth ballot, according to FBI sources, Siri again obtained the necessary votes and was elected supreme pontiff. But the French cardinals annulled the results, claiming that the election would cause widespread riots and the assassination of several prominent bishops behind the Iron Curtain.[11]

    “The cardinals opted to elect Cardinal Frederico Tedischini as a "transitional pope," but Tedischini was too ill to accept the position.
    “Finally, on the third day of balloting, Roncalli received the necessary support to become Pope John XXIII. . . .” (Paul L. Williams, The Vatican Exposed, Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2003, pp. 90-92.)

    The footnotes that Williams' references are: [5] Department of State confidential biography, "John XXIII," issue date: no date, declassified: February 15, 1974; see also Avro Manhattan, Murder in the Vatican, p. 31. [7] John Cooney, The American Pope, p. 259. [8] Department of State secret dispatch, "John XXIII," issue date: November 20, 1958, declassified: November 11, 1974.  [9] The announcer's words appeared in the London Tablet, November 1, 1958, p. 387. [10] Houston Post, October 27, 1958, pp. 1 and 7.  [11] Department of State secret file, "Cardinal Siri," issue date: April 10, 1961, declassified: February 28, 1994.

    The testimony of this former FBI consultant, based upon FBI intelligence, confirms that Cardinal Siri was elected and took the name “Gregory XVII.”  It confirms what others have said: Cardinal Siri was prevented from feely assuming the office by the French pack of conspirators and threats.  If this FBI intelligence is correct, then the subsequent “election” of Angelo Roncalli [John XXIII] was absolutely and totally invalid.  It is worthy of note that Cardinal Siri’s election is not the subject of Mr. Williams’ book.  He simply mentions it, almost in passing, and with no apparent motive for making this up – lending further credence to its veracity.

    Thus Cardinal Siri, who was therefore the fifth Pope elected last century, is said to have promptly accepted the office and announced that he would take the name "Gregory XVII."  Then, a strident outcry of protest was heard from some of the radical French Cardinals, some of whom were said to be Freemasons, who jumped to their feet to intimidate the new Pope with the threat that they would immediately establish an international schismatic church, if he emerged from the conclave as pope.  Shaken badly, Siri is supposed to have replied: "if you do not want me, then elect someone else." By this one statement, which was taken as his abdication, would come the apocalyptic nightmare that has resulted with the Vatican II “Church.”

    But again, Church law provides:

    "...A valid Abdication of the Pope must be a free act, hence a forced resignation of the papacy would be null and void, as more than one ecclesiastical decree has declared.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, v. 1, 1907, p. 32.

    This means that the subsequent election of John XXIII would not have been valid if Siri was forced to resign.  Exactly when Cardinal Tedeschini was elected is not known, but it is clearly stated by Williams above, and in Scortesco's writings, that during one of the ballots he was elected.  This must have been after Siri's third or fourth ballot election.  Perhaps Tedeschini was elected after Siri in the confusion that reigned after the first election, but then Tedeschini was also set aside in a similar manner to Siri so that they could implant Angelo Roncalli [John XXIII].

    All of this explains why at 6:00 p.m. on October 26, 1958 white smoke billowed from the Sistine Chapel for a full five minutes; it explains why the Palatine and Swiss Guards were called to prepare to greet the new Pope.  It explains why Cardinals in the Conclave were seen waving happily to the crowd, and why the governor and marshal of the conclave prepared to greet the new Pope.

    Even Malachi Martin, a best-selling author, a Vatican insider, and a hero of many defenders of Antipopes John XXIII and Paul VI, blows this story wide open (at least concerning the 1963 election), by admitting in his book The Keys of This Blood (pages 607-609) that it’s well known that Cardinal Siri received the required number of votes to make him Pope in 1963, but that Siri’s election was “set aside” by what Martin calls “a little brutality.”  Martin explicitly mentions that “communication” (interference) occurred between a member of the conclave and an “internationally based organization” concerning the Siri candidacy.  He noted that this dealt with a “grave matter of [Vatican] state security.”  (It is said that the Communists may have threatened to drop nuclear explosives on the Vatican if Siri accepted the election, as well as killing every bishop behind the Iron Curtain.)  So even Malachi Martin, a defender of Antipopes John XXIII and Paul VI, admitted that Cardinal Siri received pressure not to accept the office to which Martin admits he was elected.  This confirms what Scortesco revealed and demonstrates, again, that the election of Giovanni Montini [Antipope Paul VI] was fraudulent.

    Cardinal Siri’s Own Testimony

    But besides the testimony of Martin and Scortesco, an interview that Cardinal Siri gave before his death is worthy of note.  In a published interview with the Marquis de Franquerey, Louis Remy and Francis Delay, Siri was asked questions on various topics, including what Scortesco revealed about his election.  While denying other things in the interview, Siri would not deny that he was elected Pope.  All he would say was that:

    “I am bound by the secret.  This secret is horrible.  I would have books to write about the different conclaves, very serious things have taken place, but I can say nothing.”

    The interviewers concluded that since Siri denied other things they asked him, but would not deny that he had been elected, what Scortesco said must be true.  One should note that Siri was mistaken about being bound by the secret of the conclave.  The secret of the conclave would not bind when the salvation of millions of souls are at stake – and when it had already been totally violated by the pack of French apostates and conspirators who had conferred with the B’nai Brith.  And the horrible secrets of the conclave to which Siri alluded without a doubt refer to the unlawful intervention of outside forces which blocked his ability to accept the Chair of Peter.

    It’s obvious from the evidence that the notorious set of white smoke that was seen by everyone on October 26, 1958 indicated the election of the true Pope, Cardinal Siri.  Everyone, even the Cardinals, believed we had a new Pope.  But then the Freemasons and the Communists got involved and prevented the new Pope from assuming the office. This was the outside communication which Scortesco revealed.    Then the white smoke changed to black smoke and two days later the Freemasons and the Communists implanted their man, the Freemasonic agent, Angelo Roncalli [Antipope John XXIII].  The same interference occurred in the 1963 conclave, although, in this case, Cardinal Siri had his election illegally blocked in favor of the infiltrator Giovanni Montini – Antipope Paul VI.

    30 Days Magazine, a magazine favorable to the Vatican II Antipopes, held an interview in 1994 with the head of Italian Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, the Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Italy.

    The Grand Master stated:  “As for that, it seems that John XXIII was initiated into a Masonic Lodge in Paris and participated in the work of the Istanbul workshops.” (Giovanni Cubeddu, 30 Days, Issue No. 2-1994, p. 25.)

    So it’s obvious that Antipope John XXIII was a Freemasonic agent whose mission was to begin the attempted demolition of the Church of Christ by means of his false council.  And, as our material shows, Paul VI was frequently seen wearing the breast-plate of a Jєωιѕн High-Priest, in addition to his attempt to demolish Catholic Tradition as soon as he assumed power.

    Some ask: if Cardinal Siri was elected in 1958 and 1963 or either one, why didn’t he stand up for his office more vigorously?  Our purpose here is not to examine this question (see note at the end of article).  Our purpose is simply to establish that the evidence of his elections, as well as the communication with the outside, demonstrates that something uncanonical went on in the conclaves of 1958 and 1963, as Scortesco revealed.  This makes perfect sense because we know, by divine faith, that Antipope Paul VI could not have possibly possessed the keys of Peter, since he solemnly bound his subjects to the heresies of Vatican II.  Vatican II could not have been bound in heaven, so we know that Antipope Paul VI had no power to bind on earth, for he did try to bind Vatican II on earth.  And Antipope John XXIII also could not have been a true Pope, since he set the table for the apostasy while being a heretic himself.

    In the Sept. 2004 Issue of Inside the Vatican there is an interview with Fr. Charles-Roux.  Fr. Charles-Roux says:

    "There were certain irregularities about the election during that 1958 conclave, as Cardinal Tisserant has himself acknowledged. Some say Agagianian was elected, others Siri, others some other cardinal, and that the camerlengo [=chamberlain] then annulled the election. In any case, I'm quite sure John XXIII chose his name, the name of an antipope [of the 15th century], quite consciously, to show he had been irregularly elected." – Fr. Charles-Roux, Inside the Vatican, 09/04, p. 41. Fr. Roux was a priest who said Mass on the set of The Passion of the Christ.

    CONCLUSION

    The information about the elections of Cardinal Siri in 1958 and 1963 is not necessary to prove that the apostates John XXIII and Paul VI were not valid Popes; nor is it necessary to prove that the Vatican II heretics who subsequently came from their line, John Paul I and John Paul II, were not valid Popes.  But these facts show that the “elections” of John XXIII and Paul VI were uncanonical.  This is extremely valuable and important because it explains how this false church of the Vatican II Antipopes got started, and why its official decrees and teachings are not protected by the Holy Ghost.  It explains that it was an uncanonical election which started this entire schism of the Vatican II sect, which will probably go down in the Eternal Book of Judgment – with the Great Eastern and Great Western Schisms – as “The Final Schism.”

    Prophecy of St. Francis of Assisi (d. 1226): “There will be an uncanonically elected Pope who will cause a great schism, there will be diverse thoughts preached which will cause many, even those in the different orders to doubt, yea, even agree with those heretics which will cause my Order to divide, then will there be such universal dissensions and persecutions that if those days were not shortened even the elect would be lost.” (Rev. Culleton, The Reign of Antichrist, Tan Books, 1974, p. 130.)

    We believe that St. Francis of Assisi was definitely predicting the invalid and uncanonical election of Antipope John XXIII.  This uncanonical election started the apocalyptic nightmare of the Great Apostasy that is now upon us.

    Bl. Joachim (d. 1202): “Towards the end of the world, Antichrist will overthrow the pope and usurp his see.” (Rev. Culleton, The Reign of Antichrist, Tan Books, 1974, p. 130.)

    Prophecy of St. Nicholas of Fluh (1417-1487): “The Church will be punished because the majority of her members, high and low, will become so perverted.  The Church will sink deeper and deeper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of Peter and the other Apostles to have expired.  But, after this, she will be victoriously exalted in the sight of all doubters.”

    The Cardinal Siri information should help people realize that those who accept the Vatican II “Popes” from John XXIII to John Paul II are not only accepting non-Catholic apostates who have implemented a counterfeit religion, but men who weren’t even canonically chosen by the College of Cardinals.

    Those who want more proof that the elections of Antipopes John XXIII and Paul VI were invalid need only to examine the revolution they caused.  One needs only to think of the desolation of the faith that ensued, and the millions of souls that have been lost. And one needs only to consider how they wasted no time in systematically trying to dismantle the Catholic Church.  In this regard, see also the photo galleries on our website dealing with Antipopes John XXIII and Paul VI.



    Offline Yeti

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #279 on: May 21, 2023, 06:29:07 PM »
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  • Utterly idiotic.  As I wrote in my debunking of the stupidity, the book cherry-picks out of context one or two clues about what happened at those conclaves but ignores a lot of the other evidence.  In 1958, there was no matter of "two minutes or so", but THIRTY MINUTES where the smoke was wrong.  You don't even know the basic facts.
    .

    Um, Ladislaus, did you even read what you posted? It doesn't say the smoke flowed white for 30 minutes. It says "A mix-up in smoke signals made it appear for about half an hour that Pius XII's successor had been chosen." If you read the whole article, what this means is that it took 30 minutes for the misunderstanding of the smoke signals to get resolved. In fact, it says explicitly right there in the second paragraph of the news article that the white smoke came out for "a full five minutes".

    Can you please read that article again.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #280 on: May 21, 2023, 07:06:03 PM »
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  • .

    Um, Ladislaus, did you even read what you posted? It doesn't say the smoke flowed white for 30 minutes. It says "A mix-up in smoke signals made it appear for about half an hour that Pius XII's successor had been chosen." If you read the whole article, what this means is that it took 30 minutes for the misunderstanding of the smoke signals to get resolved. In fact, it says explicitly right there in the second paragraph of the news article that the white smoke came out for "a full five minutes".

    Can you please read that article again.

    The part I also found very amusing was how the famous Silvio Negro article of Oct.27, 1958 referring to the mix up about the white smoke was actually about the conclave in 1939 that elected Pius XII. The article even indicated in the original Italian, "The Case of 1939."


    :facepalm:
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #281 on: May 21, 2023, 09:38:27 PM »
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  • Look at this website page for the definition of "public manifest formal heresy".


    The page gives your definition.  I am look for the Church's definition of a public manifest formal heretic.



    Quote
    In regards to your second question, Pope Pius XII, in his encyclical Mystici Corporis, states the following:

    “Siquidem non omne admissum, etsi grave scelus, eiusmodi est ut — sicut schisma, vel haeresis, vel apostasia faciunt — suapte natura hominem ab Ecclesiae Corpore separet
    .”

    English translation of the above Latin:

    “For not every sin offense (admissum) however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23) [Italics mine]

    Pius XII didn't used the term sin, or the phrase "public manifest formal heresy."  He used the term admissum, which is a general term that can be sin, crime, or offense.  The reason he used that term specifically is because there are two schools of thought concerning what is required to be a member of the Church.  One holds that the external bonds alone suffice, the other maintains the external bonds and interior faith are necessary to be a true member of the Church. Since sin destroys interior faith, if Pius XII had used the word sin - the sin of heresy severs a person from the Church by it nature -  he would have been seen as teaching the latter opinion.  To avoid the appearance of weighing in on this centuries old debate, he used the ambiguous term admissum.

    But let's see what Pius XII says in the very next paragraph:


    Pius XII: "24. Let every one then abhor sin (peccatum), which defiles the mystical members of our Redeemer; but if anyone unhappily falls and his obstinacy has not made him unworthy of communion with the faithful, let him be received with great love, and let eager charity see in him a weak member of Jesus Christ. For, as the Bishop of Hippo remarks, it is better "to be cured within the Church's community than to be cut off from its body as incurable members. ' (August., Serm., CXXXVII).

    If a person falls into sin without, yet is obstinacy has not made him unworthy of communion with the faithful (had retained the external bonds), he is to be received with greater love, for, as Augustine teaches, it is better "to be cured within the Church's community than to be cut off from its body as incurable members."

    To gain insight into the mind of Pius XII, we should ask who St. Augustine was referring to in the quote he cited? Was he referring to someone who was only guilty of a moral offense, or was he referring to those who openly attacking the faith, and therefore have apparently fallen into the sin of heresy, yet remained in communion with the Church?  It was the latter.  In the quote Pius XII cited, the Bishop of Hippo is speaking of the Pelagians who had not yet separated from the Church and joined a Pelagian sect.  Here is the full quote in context:

    St. August., Sermin, CXXXVII:  “But because he went off, having been found guilty and detested by the Church rather than corrected and subdued, I was afraid that it was perhaps he himself who was trying to disturb your faith, and for this reason I thought I should mention his name.  But it makes no difference whether it is he or others who partake of his error.  For there are more than we would expect. And where they are not refuted, they win over others to their sect, and they are becoming so numerous that I do not know where they will turn upYet we prefer that they be healed within the framework of the Church rather than cut off from its body like incurable members, at least if the very gravity of the situation permits this.”

    So, when Pius XII said "if anyone unhappily falls and his obstinacy has not made him unworthy of communion with the faithful, let him be received with great love, and let eager charity see in him a weak member of Jesus Christ," he was including those who fall into errors against the faith, and who spread them openly.  As long as they remain within the framework of the Church, they remain part of the Church's body.  And remaining part of the body suffices for a person to hold office in the Church.

    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #282 on: May 21, 2023, 09:57:48 PM »
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  • The screenshot above is taken from a treatise on the Church by Fr. Joachim Salaverri, S.J., published as part of the dogmatic theology manual called Sacrae Theologiae Summa, which bears an Imprimatur date of August 27, 1955. The Latin original was translated by Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J.



    Notice that the Salaverri says "formal and manifest heretics ... have broken the social bond of faith and government established by Christ.  By severing the social bond of government, they have cut themselves off from "the framework of the Church" and hence are no longer part of the Church's body.

    Here is how Salaverri defines a public heretic four pages earlier:

    Quote
    "A public heretic is someone who openly adheres to some heretical sect." (Salaverri, Sacrae Theologiae Summa, IB, p. 423)

    No one who remains within the framework of the Church (i.e., has not severed the social bond of government) is a "public heretic," or a "formal and manifest heretic," according to the teaching of the theologian that you cited as your authority.







    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #283 on: May 21, 2023, 10:08:56 PM »
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  • The page gives your definition.  I am look for the Church's definition of a public manifest formal heretic.

    DEFINITION OF HERESY

    Can. 1325 (1917 Code) 1. The faithful of Christ are bound to profess their faith whenever their silence, evasiveness, or manner of acting encompasses an implied denial of the faith, contempt for religion, injury to God, or scandal for a neighbor.  2. After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic; if he completely turns away from the Christian faith, [such a one is] an apostate; if finally he refuses to be under the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the Church subject to him, he is a schismatic.


    Can. 751 (1983 Code) Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff [i.e., the legitimate one] or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.



    IPSO FACTO LOSS OF ECCLESIASTICAL OFFICE FOR HERESY

    Canon 188 §4 (1917 Code): “Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if the cleric…Publicly defects from the Catholic faith.” 

    Canon 2314 §1 º2 (1917 Code): states that heretics, “unless they respect warnings they are deprived of…office…with the warning being repeated, are deposed.”

    Canon 194 §1 º2 (1983 Code): “The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself…a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church.” §2: “The removal mentioned in n. 2  can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.”

    So both 1917 and 1983 Canon Law provide that a public heretic loses his office automatically, but the physical “enforcement” of that vacancy (kicking the bum out) requires a “warning” or a “declaration” by Church authorities. There seems to be no real difference between 1917 and 1983 in this matter.

    Offline LaCosaNostra

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #284 on: May 21, 2023, 10:14:50 PM »
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  • DEFINITION OF HERESY

    Can. 1325 (1917 Code) 1. The faithful of Christ are bound to profess their faith whenever their silence, evasiveness, or manner of acting encompasses an implied denial of the faith, contempt for religion, injury to God, or scandal for a neighbor.  2. After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic; if he completely turns away from the Christian faith, [such a one is] an apostate; if finally he refuses to be under the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the Church subject to him, he is a schismatic.


    Can. 751 (1983 Code) Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff [i.e., the legitimate one] or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.



    IPSO FACTO LOSS OF ECCLESIASTICAL OFFICE FOR HERESY

    Canon 188 §4 (1917 Code): “Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if the cleric…Publicly defects from the Catholic faith.”

    Canon 2314 §1 º2 (1917 Code): states that heretics, “unless they respect warnings they are deprived of…office…with the warning being repeated, are deposed.”

    Canon 194 §1 º2 (1983 Code): “The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself…a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church.” §2: “The removal mentioned in n. 2  can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.”

    So both 1917 and 1983 Canon Law provide that a public heretic loses his office automatically, but the physical “enforcement” of that vacancy (kicking the bum out) requires a “warning” or a “declaration” by Church authorities. There seems to be no real difference between 1917 and 1983 in this matter.


    You defined heresy, and you showed what happens if someone publicly defects from the faith, but you didn't define public defection from the faith.