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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41463 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #255 on: May 20, 2023, 08:33:22 AM »
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  • Maybe he is a heretic.  Maybe he isn't.  

    I think you should keep in mind Joseph Ratzinger's "hermeneutic of continuity".  This was evidence that he did not want to break from Tradition.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #256 on: May 20, 2023, 08:37:49 AM »
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  • :laugh1:  Which one?  He wrote multiple books on many topics.  Unless "Mystici Corporis" referenced specific statements, we can't say that any of +Bellarmine's "teachings" were confirmed.

    That heresy, by its very nature, separates the heretic from the Church.

    "St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus Liguori, Don Pietro Ballerini, Pope Gregory XVI, and many others, all teach that if a pope demonstrates himself to be a manifest heretic, i.e. a plainly manifested public formal heretic, he ceases by himself to be pope."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.




    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #257 on: May 20, 2023, 08:38:37 AM »
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  • You always write about Father Kramer in the third person, but I strongly suspect that you're actually Father Kramer. 

    I am not Fr. Paul Kramer.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #258 on: May 20, 2023, 08:39:45 AM »
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  • He never publically abjured/corrected/apologized for any of these heresies.  History will show him as an anti-pope.

    Do you hold Jorge Bergoglio to be an antipope?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #259 on: May 20, 2023, 08:52:31 AM »
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  • You always write about Father Kramer in the third person, but I strongly suspect that you're actually Father Kramer.  

    No, he's just obsessed with Fr. Kramer.  If you go to his website, its 75% Fr. Kramer over and over again.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #260 on: May 20, 2023, 08:56:02 AM »
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  • I think you should keep in mind Joseph Ratzinger's "hermeneutic of continuity".  This was evidence that he did not want to break from Tradition.

    Correct. Even if one thinks Benedict XVI's argument is unreasonable or incorrect, he clearly professes that he holds to the teachings of "the Church which the Lord has given us."

    https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2005/december/docuмents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20051222_roman-curia.html

    Here is the key passage:

    Quote
    Well, it all depends on the correct interpretation of the Council or - as we would say today - on its proper hermeneutics, the correct key to its interpretation and application. The problems in its implementation arose from the fact that two contrary hermeneutics came face to face and quarrelled with each other. One caused confusion, the other, silently but more and more visibly, bore and is bearing fruit.

    On the one hand, there is an interpretation that I would call "a hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture"; it has frequently availed itself of the sympathies of the mass media, and also one trend of modern theology. On the other, there is the "hermeneutic of reform", of renewal in the continuity of the one subject-Church which the Lord has given to us. She is a subject which increases in time and develops, yet always remaining the same, the one subject of the journeying People of God.
    The hermeneutic of discontinuity risks ending in a split between the pre-conciliar Church and the post-conciliar Church. It asserts that the texts of the Council as such do not yet express the true spirit of the Council. It claims that they are the result of compromises in which, to reach unanimity, it was found necessary to keep and reconfirm many old things that are now pointless. However, the true spirit of the Council is not to be found in these compromises but instead in the impulses toward the new that are contained in the texts.

    Again, you may disagree with Benedict's reasoning and belief in the need for "reform." But he clearly states that the docuмents of VII must be interpreted "in continuity of the one subject-Church which the Lord has given us," not a Church of our own making, a Church of rupture. 

    This is surely a more liberal view than is normal on this forum. It is essentially that of John Cardinal Newman. But it is definitely not heretical. In fact, Benedict correctly identifies the heretical position as that of "rupture" with Tradition. The promoter of the "hermeneutic of rupture" is Bergoglio, the heretic antipope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #261 on: May 20, 2023, 09:41:32 AM »
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  • I think you should keep in mind Joseph Ratzinger's "hermeneutic of continuity".  This was evidence that he did not want to break from Tradition.

    Nonsense.  This term could just as easily be cover for a Modernistic development of doctrine.  Modernist notion of "continuity" entails the development or evolution of doctrine.

    What's at issue are the pages of heretical propositions consistently taught by Ratzinger.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #262 on: May 20, 2023, 09:43:38 AM »
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  • Correct. Even if one thinks Benedict XVI's argument is unreasonable or incorrect, he clearly professes that he holds to the teachings of "the Church which the Lord has given us."

    He can say whatever he wants, even if the opposite is demonstrable.  Modernists can aver this proposition with their Modernist understanding of it.  You can CLAIM that you believe everything the Church teaches, despite the fact that you obviously do not.  How?  By claiming the Church doesn't teach your heretical proposition, or that the Church's teaching means something other than how those who first defined it understood it. That's what Modernists do.  Old Catholics also "profess" that they believe all the teachings of "the Church which the Lord has given us."  They simply redefine Church (which Ratzinger has clearly done ... see the Dimond video, half of which is about his novel ecclesiology), and they pervert the view of the Deposit of Revelation as being something "static", making it instead something that grows and evolves.  That's in fact at the very root of their heresy, and that's why it's the synthesis of all heresies.

    But you guys keep dodging your heresy of attributing the errors of V2 and the destroyed Mass to legitimate popes.  You can argue all you want about Ratzinger not being a heretic, but you can't escape your heresy of attributing corruption to the Magisterium and to the Public Worship of the Church.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #263 on: May 20, 2023, 11:02:50 AM »
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  • they pervert the view of the Deposit of Revelation as being something "static", making it instead something that grows and evolves.  That's in fact at the very root of their heresy, and that's why it's the synthesis of all heresies.

    Ratzinger is not the one who believes that "the Deposit of Revelation" is "something that grows and evolves." Rather, he believes, along with Newman and other non-Modernists, that the Deposit of Revelation per se cannot change. However, our understanding of that unchangable Deposit of Revelation can grow, like an acorn grows into an oak tree. The concept of the Magisterium, which produces later dogmas like the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, is the essence of the proper view of "development of doctrine."

    The true heretics, those following "the hermeneutic of rupture," do profess Modernism, in word and deed. They are the enemies of Catholicism. They did not like Ratzinger. The heresy of Modernism DOES claim that there is no unchanging Deposit of Revelation, that everything does and can evolve. They are the bad guys. Ratzinger was opposed to that view his entire career.

    But granted Ratzinger was not a Thomist (Neo or otherwise). His theology is based on Bonaventure and Augustine. His "development of doctrine" ideas of from Cardinal Newman, who was made a cardinal by Leo XIII. Newman was not a Modernist, as explained in this book:

    https://sggresources.org/products/cardinal-newman-and-the-encyclical (online version here)

    Quote
    As to what Newman would have thought of the system of the Modernists as a whole there can be little room for doubt. The entire fabric of his theology rested on the truth, which is elementary, that man by his intellect can know God, and can recognise a revelation, when proposed with due credentials, as coming from Him, and, consequently, he would have dealt very summarily with the Subjectivism which the Pope now condemns.

    Few will question this conclusion, but there are some who either through prejudice, or defective training {iv} in theological studies, seem to think that, while they admit that this is Newman's position, and affirm that it is their own, they are free to uphold in detail as many as they like of the doctrines of Modernism.

    Ratzinger's view on that subject was identical to Newman's.



    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #264 on: May 20, 2023, 01:19:38 PM »
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  • I'm sede-vacantist and accept the Cardinal Sirii Thesis. Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice", and the folks who can't tell there's something wrong with the voicings of Vatican II don't have very good ears.

    I'd have to go look through those docuмents again to find the quotes, but they said themselves that they called the Council because of the world, the modern world, and isn't that special? To do something like that and all that followed because of the modern world rather than the faith? Let the V2 notion that the world comes first be anathema.

    For all those imbibing of the Siri theory, Matthew posted a good piece in the library that debunks it pretty well:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/was-siri-the-pope/

    I think it's an evasion, like the Paul VI body double stuff, etc. Some simply can't deal with the reality of the Conciliar papacy, and have to come up with things like the Siri theory to maintain some semblance of mental equilibrium to avoid the otherwise inevitable cognitive dissonance with what was thought about the "indefectible" Church.

    And all Laddie's ranting and raving about "heresy" and "heretics" when some of us address reality comes off like a Lionel with an attitude who is deprived of his blankie.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #265 on: May 20, 2023, 01:23:13 PM »
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  • ***duplicate**
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #266 on: May 20, 2023, 02:27:10 PM »
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  • For all those imbibing of the Siri theory, Matthew posted a good piece in the library that debunks it pretty well:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/was-siri-the-pope/
    .

    Yes, I wrote a short summary of that guy's arguments. Basically, he demonstrates with factual evidence that most of the claims and supposed facts that the Siri theory rests on are either factually untrue or substantially misconstrued. I really thought the whole thing was effective.

    I don't really think the truth or falsity of the theory has much effect on theology, though.


    Quote
    I think it's an evasion, like the Paul VI body double stuff, etc. Some simply can't deal with the reality of the Conciliar papacy, and have to come up with things like the Siri theory to maintain some semblance of mental equilibrium to avoid the otherwise inevitable cognitive dissonance with what was thought about the "indefectible" Church.

    Well, the Church certainly is indefectible, that's Catholic doctrine. And it certainly hasn't defected. It's still here, we still belong to it, and it's still teaching the Truth and sanctifying its members. I think the way the Siri theory is used to explain the crisis in the Church is unsatisfactory and makes little sense anyway, so that's why I don't think it changes much whether it is true or false.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #267 on: May 20, 2023, 03:15:32 PM »
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  • Yes, I wrote a short summary of that guy's arguments.
    ...
    Well, the Church certainly is indefectible, that's Catholic doctrine.

    Well, I thought the paper was junk.  We all know that there's no smoking gun proof regarding the election of Siri, and that's why it's called a theory.  I find it credible and the most plausible explanation of what happened at V2.  This guy's paper basically begged the question, assuming that it was untrue because there was no smoking gun proof, which is a huge logical fallacy, and he admits his bias.

    But, as you point out, these are all details.  Sedevacantism, sedeimpoundism, Siri-ism, the 5 opinions, whether this or that individual was a heretic, the strict limits of infallibility ... these are all details that we can argue about until the proverbial cows come home.  You could even claim that these guys have been blackmailed, drugged, or replaced by imposters.  Whatever floats your boat.

    But these details are all distractions from the CORE theological problem, which is, as you point out, the Church's Magisterium and Mass cannot become corrupt and harmful to souls.  Period.  End of story.  Outside of that, as far as I'm concerned, more power to you in terms of what theory you come up with to answer how V2 happened.  But don't tell me that the Catholic Magisterium and the Catholic Mass have become corrupted and harmful to souls.

    That actually is the point of this thread.  Father Chazal's sede-impoundist position gives R&R a means of backing away from the absolutely non-Catholic notion that the Church has become corrupted through the free exercise of legitimate papal authority.  Archbishop Lefebvre, BTW, upheld the proposition that freely-exercised legitimate papal authority could not do this to the Church ... despite the fact that these R&R who deny that proposition claim to have +Lefebvre on their side.  +Lefebvre merely prescinded from coming up with THE explanation for how this came about, saying that SV was a real possibility, and going through the other theories and finding them implausible, but not implausible enough where he felt he could commit to the SV conclusion with any kind of certainty ... and that too is an acceptable Catholic opinion.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #268 on: May 20, 2023, 03:48:18 PM »
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  • Well, I thought the paper was junk.  We all know that there's no smoking gun proof regarding the election of Siri, and that's why it's called a theory.  I find it credible and the most plausible explanation of what happened at V2.  This guy's paper basically begged the question, assuming that it was untrue because there was no smoking gun proof, which is a huge logical fallacy, and he admits his bias.
    .

    There are various ideas, both public facts and also rumors and similar things, that are adduced as evidence of the Siri thesis. That is what the author of the paper addressed. If it's not possible to refute an idea by refuting the evidence used to support it, then I'm not sure how you would do so.

    For example, the most public fact used to support the Siri thesis is the fact that white smoke came out of the chimney for five minutes, followed by black smoke. This has been used by people to argue that it means a pope was elected.

    The author refutes this by saying it is false to suppose that white smoke indicates a papal election. The reality is more complex. The true signals are as follows:

    Positive result: white smoke
    Negative result: white smoke followed by black smoke

    This information comes straight from the man in charge of the conclave, who was in charge of three conclaves all together: Pius XI, Pius XII and Roncalli. His name was Prince Chigi, and he was an Italian aristocrat. He gave a simple explanation for how the smoke works. Basically, the white smoke comes from burning the ballots. The black smoke results from putting wet straw into the ballots while they are burning. You cannot simply ignite wet straw (Prince Chigi explained) because being wet it will not light. So, when no pope is elected in a ballot, the ballots themselves must first be burned, causing white smoke, and then the straw must be added, making the smoke black.

    And what was the type of smoke that came out on that Sunday afternoon in 1958? It was white and then black -- the signal for a null election result.

    Chigi went on to explain that the correct way to interpret the smoke is that you have to wait until the smoke stops coming out before you call it, to be sure that black smoke never comes out. Only after the smoke stops flowing can you know what the true result is. The priest announcing the result on the radio failed to do this and announced that a pope had been elected while the smoke was still flowing; I believe this was the first ballot of the conclave so he would not have a lot of experience on how this works yet.

    The exact same mistake had been made in 1939 when Pius XII was elected. The announcer called it too early, said a pope was elected, the bells rang, the Swiss Guards went to their place, etc., but then the black smoke came out. Later, Pius XII came out of the conclave, and no one questions the validity of his election. The author of the article provided photographs of scans of newspapers that reported on this.

    All of this makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise, what? The cardinal at the stove started burning white smoke and then some modernist cardinal snuck up behind him and put him in a full Nelson while other modernist cardinals started stuffing wet straw into the stove -- all in a matter of two minutes or so? Or what exactly is the scenario that Siri theorists think happened?

    I guess people could say Prince Chigi is part of some sort of conspiracy. This makes little sense to me because this guy was a layman, was not in the conclave, and was not part of Vatican 2. He had been in two conclaves before 1958 and had been trusted by true popes. What motive would he have to be part of a modernist conspiracy? And what evidence is there that he promoted modernism anyway?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #269 on: May 20, 2023, 05:59:01 PM »
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  • That actually is the point of this thread.  Father Chazal's sede-impoundist position gives R&R a means of backing away from the absolutely non-Catholic notion that the Church has become corrupted through the free exercise of legitimate papal authority.  Archbishop Lefebvre, BTW, upheld the proposition that freely-exercised legitimate papal authority could not do this to the Church ... despite the fact that these R&R who deny that proposition claim to have +Lefebvre on their side.  +Lefebvre merely prescinded from coming up with THE explanation for how this came about, saying that SV was a real possibility, and going through the other theories and finding them implausible, but not implausible enough where he felt he could commit to the SV conclusion with any kind of certainty ... and that too is an acceptable Catholic opinion.

    You really have to laugh your ass off, every time Loudestmouth destroys the Church under the pretext of saving it.  He's crazier than a rat in a tin shithouse.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."