Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41413 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Meg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6791
  • Reputation: +3467/-2999
  • Gender: Female
Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #240 on: May 19, 2023, 05:35:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching was confirmed by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis.


    Where in Mystici Corporis is Bellarmine's teaching confirmed?

    Mystici Corporis Christi (June 29, 1943) | PIUS XII (vatican.va)
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2425
    • Reputation: +1252/-253
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #241 on: May 19, 2023, 07:32:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Therefore, it cannot be maintained that Joseph Ratzinger is a heretic, on the basis of the specious and false pretext that he has asserted heretical disbelief in dogmas by incorrectly explicating those dogmas which in their proper content include in themselves the notion of created substance composed of matter and form, or that he has explained other dogmas in such a manner that involves his argument in some basic contradiction. He has professed belief in the dogmas, but has explained them in a logically incoherent and sometimes contradictory manner, but without directly, immediately, explicitly, and knowingly asserting disbelief in the dogmas themselves, which alone would be an indicium of formal heresy that constitutes proof of formal heresy; yet, as I have explained, his exposition on their meaning contain propositions which, considered in themselves, contain material heresy in that the contrary part of his contradictory assertions are opposed to the dogmas which he does profess, and, due to his faulty understanding of the philosophical concepts which underlie some dogmas, he does not always profess those dogmas according to their proper sense as the Church has defined them. Hence, there are not to be found the indicia of formal heresy in the writings of Joseph Ratzinger, who is still at present, Pope Benedict XVI, the Vicar of Christ on earth."

    Kramer, Paul. On the true and the false pope: The case against Bergoglio (pp. 602-603). Gondolin Press. Kindle Edition.

    I agree with Fr. Paul Kramer.
    Is not praying with muslims in mosques apostasy? Or praying with jews in ѕуηαgσgυєs?


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46921
    • Reputation: +27795/-5167
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #242 on: May 19, 2023, 07:52:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is not praying with muslims in mosques apostasy? Or praying with Jєωs in ѕуηαgσgυєs?

    Actions make someone suspect of heresy, and Canon Law presumes it after 6 months of such activity, but Canon Law is not above the pope.

    Nevertheless, the track record of heresy from Ratzinger is overwhelming, to the point that even Bishop Tissier referred to him as a heretic "worse than Luther."

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46921
    • Reputation: +27795/-5167
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #243 on: May 19, 2023, 07:55:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Therefore, it cannot be maintained that Joseph Ratzinger is a heretic ...

    Maybe he is a heretic.  Maybe he isn't.  Sure seems like one to me.  That video from the Dimond Brothers lays it out so clearly that there's almost no doubt.  But people can argue that both ways, and so it's a waste of time.

    All I know is that he was either no Pope or he was being coerced or blackmailed, since a legitimate Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit and cannot preside over this false Conciliar Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46921
    • Reputation: +27795/-5167
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #244 on: May 19, 2023, 07:58:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr. Paul Kramer, in Volume II, defends Joseph Ratzinger from those who accuse him of public manifest formal heresy.

    You always write about Father Kramer in the third person, but I strongly suspect that you're actually Father Kramer.  I don't have any issues with that at all, but simply making an observation.  You are so intimately familiar with Father Kramer's works and even your own posts reflect his style.

    I have a great deal of respect for Father Kramer, and it is for that reason that I would recommend that Father Kramer seek conditional ordination from someone like Bishop Richard Williamson, whom I'm sure would be very amenable.


    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1197
    • Reputation: +507/-99
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #245 on: May 19, 2023, 08:41:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is not praying with muslims in mosques apostasy? Or praying with Jєωs in ѕуηαgσgυєs?

    It is not apostasy or heresy or schism. What you describe is called communicatio in sacris (i.e., the participation in sacred things). Here is how it is explained in the Moral Theology of Callan and McHugh:


    Quote
    961. Participation of Catholics in non-Catholic services may happen today in so many ways, and it is so difficult at times to draw the line between lawful and unlawful communication, that it is well before considering these cases to state the general rules that apply here.

    (a) It is lawful to perform an act from which two effects follow, one good and the other bad, if the act in itself is good or indifferent, if there is a sufficiently grave reason for performing it, if the evil effect is not intended, and if the evil effect be not prior to the good effect (see 104).
    (b) Circuмstances vary in different localities and countries, and communication that would signify unity of belief in a place where Catholics and non-Catholics are very unequal numerically might be very harmless in a place where there is no great numerical difference. Offense to non-Catholics should not be given needlessly.
    (c) In doubtful cases the decision whether or not a particular kind of communication is lawful or unlawful pertains to the Ordinary (Canon 1258).

    At worst, it is a sin, for a normal Catholic without a dispensation. Whether venial or mortal would depend on many factors. This sin, unlike apostasy, heresy or schism, does not incur ipso facto excommunication or loss of ecclesiastical office.

    Note also, according to Canon 1258 (1917 Canon Law) it is "the Ordinary" who decides if "a particular kind of communication is lawful or unlawful." A sitting Pope is a higher authority than any Ordinary. So if a canonically-elected Pope decides that he is justified in praying with anyone, he has the authority to make that call. He is not to be judged in that matter. He would be the ultimate judge.

    So to claim that he is ipso facto excommunicated or that he loses his office over an action that Canon Law gives him to power to dispense with is completely ridiculous.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1197
    • Reputation: +507/-99
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #246 on: May 19, 2023, 09:17:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Actions make someone suspect of heresy, and Canon Law presumes it after 6 months of such activity, but Canon Law is not above the pope.

    Nevertheless, the track record of heresy from Ratzinger is overwhelming, to the point that even Bishop Tissier referred to him as a heretic "worse than Luther."


    It is a very long video with many accusations mentioned that definitely do not approach "heresy" as defined by the Church.

    To be considered relevant for ipso facto loss of ecclesiastical office, an action must be a clear sign of obstinate, formal, and manifest defection from the Catholic faith. So an action that would merely "make someone suspect of heresy" would not rise to the level of formal, manifest, obstinate heresy.

    Can you please pull out what you believe to be the most damning offense of Ratzinger from that video? I guess it would not be that he wore a business suit at VII or that he took photos with religious leaders from around the world (which is part of the Pope's job). I addressed the issues related to communicatio in sacris in another post. Those actions do not signify heresy. Maybe a bad wardrobe choice or bad judgment about who to take photos with. But not heresy as that term is defined by the Church.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12471
    • Reputation: +7921/-2450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #247 on: May 19, 2023, 09:40:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching was confirmed by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis.
    :laugh1:  Which one?  He wrote multiple books on many topics.  Unless "Mystici Corporis" referenced specific statements, we can't say that any of +Bellarmine's "teachings" were confirmed.


    By the way, the Church does not "teach" in this way.  She does not reference saints' ideas, but proposes doctrine as 1) being from Scripture or 2) from Apostolic Tradition and 3) ordering such teaching to be believed by all the faithful.

    She doesn't need to reference any saints to "teach".  She simply needs to follow the formula laid out by Vatican 1.

    And I don't think "Mystici Corporis" did any of this.  It was not a doctrinal encyclical.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12471
    • Reputation: +7921/-2450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #248 on: May 19, 2023, 09:45:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    Nevertheless, the track record of heresy from Ratzinger is overwhelming, to the point that even Bishop Tissier referred to him as a heretic "worse than Luther."
    Yes.  Unfortunately, +Ratzinger was a heretic, and held/wrote heretical things before, during and after his papacy.  The worst heretical actions of his papacy were his multiple visits to the ѕуηαgσgυє where he worshiped the jooish religion, as both equal to, and above, catholicism.


    He never publically abjured/corrected/apologized for any of these heresies.  History will show him as an anti-pope.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2425
    • Reputation: +1252/-253
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #249 on: May 19, 2023, 11:41:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is a very long video with many accusations mentioned that definitely do not approach "heresy" as defined by the Church.

    To be considered relevant for ipso facto loss of ecclesiastical office, an action must be a clear sign of obstinate, formal, and manifest defection from the Catholic faith. So an action that would merely "make someone suspect of heresy" would not rise to the level of formal, manifest, obstinate heresy.

    Can you please pull out what you believe to be the most damning offense of Ratzinger from that video? I guess it would not be that he wore a business suit at VII or that he took photos with religious leaders from around the world (which is part of the Pope's job). I addressed the issues related to communicatio in sacris in another post. Those actions do not signify heresy. Maybe a bad wardrobe choice or bad judgment about who to take photos with. But not heresy as that term is defined by the Church.
    What about in regards to the Novus ordo ordinations of Benedict 16 and Francis?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46921
    • Reputation: +27795/-5167
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #250 on: May 19, 2023, 11:46:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is a very long video with many accusations mentioned that definitely do not approach "heresy" as defined by the Church.

    You've got to be kidding.  I doubt you watched any of it.  This evidence is absolutely damning.  Even I was surprised by how many overly heretical statements Ratzinger has "taught" over the years.

    Even Bishop Tissier, who studied the works of Ratzinger, characterized him as a heretic "worse than Luther".  I have no idea what you're smoking, but it's a pretty sad case of denial and wishful thinking.


    Offline Donachie

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2566
    • Reputation: +620/-258
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #251 on: May 20, 2023, 02:46:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm sede-vacantist and accept the Cardinal Sirii Thesis. Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice", and the folks who can't tell there's something wrong with the voicings of Vatican II don't have very good ears.

    I'd have to go look through those docuмents again to find the quotes, but they said themselves that they called the Council because of the world, the modern world, and isn't that special? To do something like that and all that followed because of the modern world rather than the faith? Let the V2 notion that the world comes first be anathema.

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #252 on: May 20, 2023, 08:06:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You've got to be kidding.  I doubt you watched any of it.  This evidence is absolutely damning.  Even I was surprised by how many overly heretical statements Ratzinger has "taught" over the years.

    Even Bishop Tissier, who studied the works of Ratzinger, characterized him as a heretic "worse than Luther".  I have no idea what you're smoking, but it's a pretty sad case of denial and wishful thinking.

    Well, that video is made by Michael Dimond. I wouldn't watch it either. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #253 on: May 20, 2023, 08:10:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Where in Mystici Corporis is Bellarmine's teaching confirmed?

    Mystici Corporis Christi (June 29, 1943) | PIUS XII (vatican.va)

    Still waiting to find out where in that encyclical that Bellarmine's teaching is confirmed. There are no references to Bellarmine in the references listed below the encyclical. I read through most of the encyclical yesterday, and found nothing by Bellarmine. The encyclical did, however, mention many times that Christ our Lord is the head of the Church. 

    Mystici Corporis - Papal Encyclicals
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1197
    • Reputation: +507/-99
    • Gender: Male
    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #254 on: May 20, 2023, 08:31:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You've got to be kidding.  I doubt you watched any of it.  This evidence is absolutely damning.  Even I was surprised by how many overly heretical statements Ratzinger has "taught" over the years.

    Even Bishop Tissier, who studied the works of Ratzinger, characterized him as a heretic "worse than Luther".  I have no idea what you're smoking, but it's a pretty sad case of denial and wishful thinking.

    I will give you one example that is typical of the Dimondite analysis:

    1. Watch the video at at the timestamp provided: https://youtu.be/rkPiaS1z6Vs?t=289

    2. Read the full context of those quotes the Dimonds pull out in the docuмent from the Vatican website:


    Quote
    7. Contribution of Jєωιѕн reading of the Bible

    22. The horror in the wake of the extermination of the Jєωs (the Shoah) during the Second World War has led all the Churches to rethink their relationship with Judaism and, as a result, to reconsider their interpretation of the Jєωιѕн Bible, the Old Testament. It may be asked whether Christians should be blamed for having monopolised the Jєωιѕн Bible and reading there what no Jєω has found. Should not Christians henceforth read the Bible as Jєωs do, in order to show proper respect for its Jєωιѕн origins?
    In answer to the last question, a negative response must be given for hermeneutical reasons. For to read the Bible as Judaism does necessarily involves an implicit acceptance of all its presuppositions, that is, the full acceptance of what Judaism is, in particular, the authority of its writings and rabbinic traditions, which exclude faith in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God.
    As regards the first question, the situation is different, for Christians can and ought to admit that the Jєωιѕн reading of the Bible is a possible one, in continuity with the Jєωιѕн Sacred Scriptures from the Second Temple period, a reading analogous to the Christian reading which developed in parallel fashion. Both readings are bound up with the vision of their respective faiths, of which the readings are the result and expression. Consequently, both are irreducible.
    On the practical level of exegesis, Christians can, nonetheless, learn much from Jєωιѕн exegesis practised for more than two thousand years, and, in fact, they have learned much in the course of history.45 For their part, it is to be hoped that Jєωs themselves can derive profit from Christian exegetical research.

    So the "last question" that docuмent asks is this:

    "Should not Christians henceforth read the [OT] Bible as Jєωs do, in order to show proper respect for its Jєωιѕн origins?"

    The answer given by the docuмent itself is plainly stated:

    "In answer to the last question, a negative response must be given for hermeneutical reasons."

    Do you see that? The answer from the authors of that docuмent is "No, Christians should not read the [OT] Bible as Jєωs do."

    Then the authors of the docuмent address the "first question" which is:

    "It may be asked whether Christians should be blamed for having monopolised the Jєωιѕн [OT] Bible and reading there what no Jєω has found."

    Here is the answer:

    "As regards the first question, the situation is different, for Christians can and ought to admit that the Jєωιѕн reading of the Bible is a possible one, in continuity with the Jєωιѕн Sacred Scriptures from the Second Temple period, a reading analogous to the Christian reading which developed in parallel fashion. Both readings are bound up with the vision of their respective faiths, of which the readings are the result and expression. Consequently, both are irreducible."

    This answer means it is "possible" to read the Old Testament Scriptures and come up with the wrong interpretation of the Jєωs. This is precisely why Jesus came in the flesh: to clarify the proper teaching, which is what the New Testament does. But since the Jєωs don't accept the New Testament or Jesus on "faith," they continue to miss the true interpretation of their own scriptures.

    Far from confirming that the Jєωιѕн interpretation is a good one, the docuмent says that "Christians should not read the Bible as the Jєωs do." And the primary reason for this is that the Christian "faith" will not allow it.

    St. Paul was constantly using verses from the Old Testament and showing how they were misunderstood by the Jєωs. He told them over and over that many of those key verses should be understood "figuratively" but the Jєωs had taken them "literally." He showed them that it is only through the light of Christ's Gospel that one can understand those teaching properly. So the Jєωs needed to first accept ON FAITH that Jesus was the messiah. If they do that, then their misunderstandings of OT Scripture would be cleared up. But until they have THE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, their interpretation will be incorrect.

    So FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST is the prerequisite for the proper interpretation. Until the Jєωs have THAT FAITH they will have a "possible" but ultimately wrong interpretation of the OT. That is a fact. That is what that passage from the quote above is saying. It is not heresy. The Dimonds just do not understand, or intentionally misrepresent, the text in question, and the rest of what they say related to that point is based on a false premise and, therefore, false.