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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 27689 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2022, 10:03:01 AM »
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    • Wow.  No offense against Fr. Chazal but, for all the grief that sedes receive, that is one seriously weak position.  Any ideas on whether he reached that conclusion before or after his book 'Contra Cekadam'?
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    Offline Melanie

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #16 on: September 23, 2022, 11:12:59 AM »
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    • I suggest everyone get behind Father Noidea’s theory of Derelectionism.  It is by far the most peaceful irresolution to this crisis.  All we are required to do is live our own best Catholic lives. Leave the seat vacant or an apostate the Pope for our children to deal with.  However one is comfortable framing the mysterious crisis, it will work for every stripe of Traditionalist and foster unity.  If the Greatest Generation ignored Assisi and Wojtyla, certainly we can feel justified ignoring Jorge the apostate.  If a problem is too complex it’s best to leave it for the next generation. Father was inspired by the Art of Manliness handbook, specifically the chapter on Home Invasion where it outlines how to run to your prie-dieu and pray to Our Lord that he remove the armed intruders or just end the world.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #17 on: September 23, 2022, 11:41:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on September 23, 2022, 10:03:01 AM
    Wow.  No offense against Fr. Chazal but, for all the grief that sedes receive, that is one seriously weak position.  Any ideas on whether he reached that conclusion before or after his book 'Contra Cekadam'?

    So ... what exactly is weak about it.  It's a variant of sedeprivationism, which has the theological weight of a Guerard Lauriers behind it, and some variant of sedeprivationism / sedeimpoundism (Chazalism) solves the problems with both R&R and SV positions.  It's actually brilliant and rests on solid foundations (including some of Bellarmine's distinctions).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #18 on: September 23, 2022, 11:44:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Melanie on September 23, 2022, 11:12:59 AM
    I suggest everyone get behind Father Noidea’s theory of Derelectionism.  It is by far the most peaceful irresolution to this crisis. 

    I've never heard of this.  Do you have a link?

    If, as you imply, this just means igoring Rome and the hierarchy, that's really a non-starter for Catholics.
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    Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #19 on: September 23, 2022, 11:58:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Melanie on Today at 12:12:59 PM
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    I suggest everyone get behind Father Noidea’s theory of Derelectionism.  It is by far the most peaceful irresolution to this crisis.

    Quote from: Ladislaus on September 23, 2022, 11:44:20 AM
    I've never heard of this.  Do you have a link?

    If, as you imply, this just means igoring Rome and the hierarchy, that's really a non-starter for Catholics.

    :facepalm: Lad, please, you cannot be serious. You want a link to Fr. Noidea's theory - of Derelectionism. :laugh1::laugh1: 
    Fr. No Idea - get it?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #20 on: September 23, 2022, 11:59:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 23, 2022, 11:41:51 AM
    So ... what exactly is weak about it.  It's a variant of sedeprivationism, which has the theological weight of a Guerard Lauriers behind it, and some variant of sedeprivationism / sedeimpoundism (Chazalism) solves the problems with both R&R and SV positions.  It's actually brilliant and rests on solid foundations (including some of Bellarmine's distinctions).
    It's weak if it's a way to avoid any connection with sedevacantists which is what you said in so many words upthread, no?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #21 on: September 23, 2022, 12:00:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 23, 2022, 11:58:23 AM
    Quote from: Melanie on Today at 12:12:59 PM:facepalm: Lad, please, you cannot be serious. You want a link to Fr. Noidea's theory - of Derelectionism. :laugh1::laugh1: 
    Fr. No Idea - get it?
    :laugh1: I missed it too!
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Meg

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #22 on: September 23, 2022, 12:05:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 23, 2022, 11:58:23 AM
    Quote from: Melanie on Today at 12:12:59 PM:facepalm: Lad, please, you cannot be serious. You want a link to Fr. Noidea's theory - of Derelectionism. :laugh1::laugh1: 
    Fr. No Idea - get it?

    Well, 'Derelectionism' probably sounded like a fascinating new form of sedevacantism to Lad. 


    ::)
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #23 on: September 23, 2022, 12:14:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 23, 2022, 12:05:07 PM
    Well, 'Derelectionism' probably sounded like a fascinating new form of sedevacantism to Lad.


    ::)
    I thought the post was masterfully done in harmless humor....."It is by far the most peaceful irresolution to this crisis." LOL
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #24 on: September 23, 2022, 12:24:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 23, 2022, 12:14:27 PM
    I thought the post was masterfully done in harmless humor....."It is by far the most peaceful irresolution to this crisis." LOL
    As I sat there reading it, I thought, "huh?" :facepalm:
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #25 on: September 23, 2022, 12:34:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 23, 2022, 09:37:59 AM
    I know this wasn't directed at me/my position, but what is the difference between Fr Chazal's position and the Cassiciacuм Thesis?  And if there really isn't one, why doesn't he just take on the CT position?

    You should know!  You coined the "Anything but sedevacantism" phrase.  Pat317 didn't say that exactly but he hinted at it by defining the trad world into two groups - sedes vs non-sedes.  They basically define themselves as non-sedes.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #26 on: September 23, 2022, 12:37:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 23, 2022, 12:05:07 PM
    Well, 'Derelectionism' probably sounded like a fascinating new form of sedevacantism to Lad.


    ::)

    I have no idea what it is ...  but, unlike some of you here ... I keep an open mind.  It was with an open mind that I listened to Father Chazal's position on a lengthy video, and I found his case to be rather compelling.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #27 on: September 23, 2022, 12:38:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 23, 2022, 12:34:21 PM
    You should know!  You coined the "Anything but sedevacantism" phrase.  Pat317 didn't say that exactly but he hinted at it by defining the trad world into two groups - sedes vs non-sedes.  They basically define themselves as non-sedes.
    I was actually thinking that the CT would be more palatable to the non-sedes because it isn't "straight" sedevacantism.  
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #28 on: September 23, 2022, 12:40:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 23, 2022, 12:34:21 PM
    You should know!  You coined the "Anything but sedevacantism" phrase.  Pat317 didn't say that exactly but he hinted at it by defining the trad world into two groups - sedes vs non-sedes.  They basically define themselves as non-sedes.

    Right, and that's the problem, this binary between the two.  That's why I had hoped that Father Chazal's position could be a bridge between the two sides.  But, alas, this thought of "does this make you, gasp!, a sedevacantist?" has continued to work its poison.  So Father Chazal had to back away from assertions that his position was nearly identical to sedeprivationism ... as the latter had become "associated" with sedevacantism, and we can't have that.  It's really quite puerile.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #29 on: September 23, 2022, 12:45:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 23, 2022, 09:58:19 AM
    No, the status of the pope does not matter, not to me and not to you ...

    :facepalm:  Cf. quote from Archbishop Lefebvre and also Catholic dogma (with which you should be well acquainted) that there can be no salvation without subjection to the Holy Father.

    In a sense, it's correct that the final disposition of Bergoglio does't matter, but what does matter is this wretched non-Catholic ecclesiology you've developed  Are you adhering to actual Roman Catholicism or are you basically an Old Catholic?  So it SHOULD matter to you, because since your eternal salvation is on the line as you clearly veer into the latter category.
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