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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55118 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #615 on: June 28, 2023, 09:28:03 PM »
And for the sake of the argument, let us assume that Siri was pope, that he died in 1989; and let us assume that his Mass ad populum was the True Mass, and that he was a legitimate prisoner within Italy.  All this is fair enough.  There is still a major problem with the election of a new pope, even if we adopt pre-John XXIII conclave rules.  The 1958 conclave was no doubt contentious, evidenced by the fact that there were 11 votes which led up to John XXIII being elected.  Since 1846, no conclave voted this many times, save the 1922 conclave which took 14 votes to elect Pius XI.

But even if the nightmare scenario happens in which all the cardinals are killed, save a few, even these few will post- John XXIII bishops/cardinals, meaning that they will be arguably non-priests/non-bishops, if we call into question the new rites.  All we can say is "grab the popcorn" because the situation in the Church is so confusing it is beyond man's comprehension.  I thank God that we live in such interesting times.  It is always darkest before the dawn! 




Offline Yeti

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #616 on: June 28, 2023, 09:28:33 PM »
According to the theory, though, he did accept.  Paul Williams (the former FBI consultant) indicated that he accepted and took the name Gregory XVII in the 1958 conclave.
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Without opening this entire discussion again, can I suggest that you read a little of that book on Archive (available with a free account) and just get a sense of it? It is not even remotely credible. Paul Williams is a hardcore leftist and is trying to smear the Church for not being leftist enough, basically. He also considers the Church a completely secular institution, and one that is completely corrupt. He considers it basically a large criminal gang (!).

As far as Williams' claim to be traditional Catholic on some level (I think he didn't use that term, but he claims to be something along those lines), it is completely false. Just read a few pages out of the book.

I spent a few minutes reading that book in random places. It doesn't take long to get the point of the book. It's just a collection of anti-Catholic urban legends, basically. The only one I can remember now is the story of some evil Benedictine monk, I think, in Serbia during World War 2 who tortured children during the War because somehow it helped the nαzιs. I don't remember much else than that, but that should be enough to make the point.

People say, "But if he hated the Church, why would he repeat the story about Cardinal Siri getting elected?" I think this story does play into his general theme, which is that the Church is just a huge criminal gang, mostly criminal because it is not leftist enough (before Vatican 2, I mean). So to say that a pope was elected but some other criminal element (leftist, in this case), forced him out of power by threats of violence in the conclave fits perfectly into his mindset.

Even if it doesn't fit some general theme, the book is just a collection of ridiculous stories that make the Church look bad.

Really, all you need to do is spend 5-10 minutes reading the book at different random places and you'll figure out what this guy's agenda is pretty fast. It's pretty straightforward.

What is noteworthy, also, is that Williams doesn't add anything to the Siri thesis. All the information he puts in that section of the book is only stuff that was circulating the world for probably decades before the book was published. You'd think that if he had access to secret FBI records, that he would have information that wasn't publicly known about this supposed event, right? Well, obviously he didn't.

Since so much else in the book was a bunch of malicious lies against the Church, I think it's safe to assume his claim to inside information about Cardinal Siri is a lie as well. Personally, my theory is that he didn't think anyone was all that interested in the Siri Thesis, or didn't realize the extent of interest, when he inserted that part into the book. Because of that, he was careless in how he wrote the fake footnotes supporting this claim, so he made the mistake of writing some rather specific details into the fake footnotes that referred to non-existent FBI docuмents. When sedevacantists tried to track down these docuмents, who had an interest in the Siri thesis that he wasn't prepared for, and found out that these docuмents cited in his fake footnotes don't actually exist, he had to do some damage control. He refused to respond to anyone who asks him why they can't look up the supposed docuмents he references on this, or explain why the FBI says they don't exist. He literally hangs up the phone on people who call him to ask about this, and refuses to respond to emails. He refused to respond to Mario Derksen and Silvio Mattachione who both emailed him about it. In the second edition of his book, he removed these footnotes that he got caught making up, and replaced them with a vague reference to "FBI Sources" that couldn't be verified, so he wouldn't have to worry about this anymore.

Please, just read some of this book. It'll really be an eye-opener for you as far as Paul Williams is concerned.


Online Pax Vobis

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #617 on: June 29, 2023, 07:36:27 AM »
If Paul Williams hates the Church and is a super-leftist, then his Siri claim is even MORE credible, because he has no Trad-agenda, he doesn't care about V2 or the new mass.  He has no reason to make the Siri facts known, or lie about it.  He is truly a third-party observer, with no agenda...the most reliable type of witness.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #618 on: June 29, 2023, 07:52:05 AM »
If Paul Williams hates the Church and is a super-leftist, then his Siri claim is even MORE credible, because he has no Trad-agenda, he doesn't care about V2 or the new mass.  He has no reason to make the Siri facts known, or lie about it.  He is truly a third-party observer, with no agenda...the most reliable type of witness.

And it's even more credible because he seems to mention this in passing and does not put any emphasis on it as being particularly important ... since he doesn't really understand or care about the theological ramifications, viewing the papacy to be similar to any political office.

What makes his claim even more credible is where he adds the detail that Siri took the papal name Gregory XVII.  If he was just making something up, where did he get that particular detail.  Also, Williams was capitalizing on his credibility due to his background, which makes it unlikely that he'd make something up just to mention it in passing that might compromise his credibility.

Nor is Williams the only one who's ever made this claim.  You had the highly-credible and well-connected Scortesco, as well as the (albeit less credible ... hit or miss) Malachi Martin.  Combined with the problems with the smoke signals, evidence that Roncalli was pre-selected up front ... and of course the aftermath of the election of Roncalli et al. ... everything points in this direction.  Scortesco was found burned alive in his bed (in typical mob-hit fashion) shortly after coming out with this information.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #619 on: June 29, 2023, 08:38:38 AM »
Prophecy of St. Francis of Assisi (d. 1226): “There will be an uncanonically elected Pope who will cause a great schism, there will be diverse thoughts preached which will cause many, even those in the different orders to doubt, yea, even agree with those heretics which will cause my Order to divide, then will there be such universal dissensions and persecutions that if those days were not shortened even the elect would be lost.” (Rev. Culleton, The Reign of Antichrist, Tan Books, 1974, p. 130.)