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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 56083 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2022, 12:23:21 PM »
If there has been no pope since John XXIII or Paul VI then there are no more bishops with jurisdiction which means no more apostolicity which is one of the four marks of the Church. This is heretical.

Let's avoid this for now and return to Father Chazal's position.  While I disagree, and believe that this objection (that of "ecclesiavacantism") has been adequately addressed by the SVs, I don't want to reopen this debate on this thread.

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2022, 12:58:09 PM »
But that's accidental to the position itself.  Position itself is very solid.
I'd agree.  I think the Thesis is probably the best way to look at an otherwise defected Church.  It is weak, though, to be rabidly anti-sedevacantist when the position he's promoting is basically the same as des Lauriers's.


Offline Yeti

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2022, 01:24:34 PM »
please provide a source for your contention that all the sees being vacant at the same time is equivalent to an end to the mark of apostolicity for the Church.
Thank you. I've been asking this same question for years and I still haven't gotten a reply. All you get is a statement that it is dogma that the Church will always have a hierarchy. I agree, and the Church has a hierarchy now as well. It has an authority structure and a government and a means of teaching infallibly. It is just that those functions are not operative in the Church right now (which is something we all agree on, anyway, since nobody here treats what they call the hierarchy now as if they were the hierarchy) because those offices are vacant.

But a specific doctrinal definition that there will always be someone, somewhere holding the office of ordinary in the Church -- that is the R&R's "missing link" argument. They're sure it's out there; it has to be! Because their system doesn't work if it isn't. And one of these days they're going to find it!

Oh, and as I implied above, any argument that someone would want to make about why there has to be someone out there with jurisdiction would also have to explain how they are able to disobey such a person that they claim has jurisdiction, since that truly is a dogma of the Church, that Catholics must obey the hierarchy both in discipline and doctrine.

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2022, 01:28:37 PM »
Agreed. And recognizing that we have a pope is a big part of being subject to him.

IMO, God has allowed a Modernist sect to occupy the Church. We tend to place the blame all on human error or heresy, but since God has allowed it, it would seem that certain amount of prudence is required. We have to do what we can to still be loyal to the papacy, and that means not going to the extreme of believing that there's no pope. (Though I'm not against Catholics, in principle, adopting sedevacantism - it's when they push it on everyone else that I have a problem, and that happens a lot around here - like this thread).

And yes, we are subject to God first. As you say, it's not complicated. It seems that sedevacantism is a lot more complicated.

So the "pope" not only allowed a modernist sect to occupy the Church but he championed it and led the way.  And you recognize this false antipope as the true pope of the Catholic Church (without actually being fully subject to him, of course) and you count this as a virtue?  And on top of that you think it is simple to understand how all this could be?  Wow!

Offline Stubborn

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2022, 07:50:43 AM »
But, this is not what he said.  The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth not the King of England.  This is a significant distinction which changes your example to not exactly being Catholic at all.  St. Thomas More was, “the King’s good servant, but God’s first.”  And we all know that he was a martyr because of this, for being subject to God in His Vicar of Christ on earth, the Pope.
Yes, the pope is not the king of England, the pope is the vicar of Christ on earth, not Christ Himself - Who *is* the head of the Church - which is why we owe our obedience to Him before anyone else. Very simple. 

It's the principle involved that is wholly Catholic and it's that principle as Catholics that applies to all aspects each and every day of our lives. I could give a million examples but prefer to hope you already understand it.

It's this simple: God always comes first because we will stand before God, not the pope. We will answer to God not the pope, hence the need to remain God's good subject before anyone else's. It is because God comes first that we do not follow anyone who will not leads us to Him no matter who it is, especially when we know they are leading everyone who chooses to follow them down the path to hell. And remember - those who follow choose to do so of their own free will, they are not forced into it. No matter how you look at it, their obedience to God is misplaced - whether knowingly or unknowingly we cannot say with certainty, but that it is misplaced we can say with certainty.

Because we are obedient to God first, and knowing they are leading the followers to hell, it makes no difference if he's not a pope, actually a pope, or an angel from heaven re: Gal 1:8.