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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55407 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2022, 11:44:51 AM »
Hi Ladislaus, I myself am open to Fr. Chazal's thesis. Can you please explain what it is? Is it to say that these vatican 2 popes don't have any authority because of their manifest heresies, but that they remain Pope? Some would say that this contradicts vatican 1. Would this also mean that any act by Francis that is for the common good, would be supplied the jurisdiction?

Of course.  Sorry, I've been busy and haven't been on for a while.  In short, Father Chazal holds that Bergoglio (and his predecessors) lack papal authority on account of their manifest heresy.  So, his position differs from classic R&R in that the latter holds that the V2 papal claimants retain papal authority but can be disobeyed on a case-by-case basis.  He holds that they remain in possession of the papal office but are impounded on account of their heresy.  It's not unlike the position promoted by Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.

So the reason Father Chazal's position is groundbreaking from the R&R perspective is that it avoids having to attribute this rampant pollution of the Church's Magisterium and public worship to papal authority.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2022, 12:05:10 PM »
5. I'm not dissing or even rejecting Fr. Chazal's position. I just don't have A) the training or B) the objective knowledge of the situation to know if it's correct or not.

6. We shouldn't get the mindset that we need to be wearing the right jersey (having the right opinion on every nuance of the Crisis) to save our soul. Even if I was fervently excited about Fr. Chazal's writings, then what? I still have to choose from the AVAILABLE positions that offer Mass in my country.

OK.  Now, the rest of your post was a reference more to sedevacatism proper, etc.

Here's where it matters, Matthew, and why I feel that Father Chazal's position is so important.

We all agree that the Crisis is not just about the Mass and the Sacraments, but it's about the faith.  Yet the problem with classic R&R, the biggest reason that there are sedevacantists in the first place, is the attribution of this degree of decay to legitimate Catholic authority.  It sets up a theology regarding the papacy and regarding Catholic ecclesiology that is much more Old Catolic than it is Catholic.  THAT is the problem with classic R&R; it's a slightly repackaged form of Old Catholicism.  It puts the very faith we're trying to preserve in great peril.

At the end of the day, on one level, you're right that the "positions" aren't critical ... but the PRINCIPLES behind SOME of the positions actually undermine Catholic faith, and in particular the classic R&R position.  As far as I'm concerned, one could argue that Montini was not acting freely because he was blackemailed, heck, one could hold that Montini was replaced by a double, ... whatever, really.  I myself believe that Cardinal Siri was the legitimate pope until his death in 1989.  But whatever position we hold cannot undermine the prerogatives and authority of the Catholic Magisterium.  We cannot throw the Church under the bus to ... preserve the Church.  There is absolutely NOTHING Traditional about claiming that Catholics can freely reject the Magisterium of an Ecuмenical Council, of 60+ years of papal Magisterium, reject the public worship of the Church as harmful to souls and offensive to God, reject many (most?) of the "saints" canonized by the Church, etc.  I defy anyone to find any Catholic theologian who ever taught this in the entire history of the Church.  In fact, the claims of the Prots and the Old Catholics echo nearly verbatim the assertion that the current Church had departed from the purity of Tradition.  In fact, the Old Catholic Declaration of Utrecht is repeated nearly verbatim on a daily basis by the adherents of classic R&R, right down to starting with that famous citation from St. Vincent of Lerins.

Father Chazal's position eliminates the need to throw the prerogatives of the Church and the Magisterium under the bus.  Archbishop Lefebvre clearly echoed Catholic teaching that the Papacy, that Ecuмenical Councils, that the Magisterium in general, and that the Church's public worship, are all guided by the Holy Spirit, and he says to sedevancantists, "I agree with you," that this degree of destruction is not possible given this guidance by and protection of the Holy Spirit.  This is expressed in the famous audio that Father Ringrose posted when he became (some flavor of) sedevacantist.  This is where people become sedevacantists.  They return to Tradition and at some point start reading pre-Vatican II theology, and realize that this is the constant TRADITIONAL teaching of the Church.  So, Archibishop Lefebvre, then, conceding this principle and agreeing with sedevacantists (on their Major), went through a few possible explanations, dismissing most of them as unlikely, and concluded with saying that SV is possible.  He simply never had enough of a confidece that this was THE answer to come out with it.  But he didn't rule it out.  Yet the important thing is that he affirmed without hesitation the principle that the protection of the Holy Spirit over the Church and the Papacy preclude Vatican II and the NOM having been produced by legitimate papal authority exercised freely.

So getting behind an explanation such as Father Chazal's is absolute critical to defend Traditional Catholic teaching regarding the nature of the Church and the Papacy ... and to avoid sliding into a repackaged Old Catholicism.

And if people don't see the problem, or don't understand why it "matters," then that's a sign of how far this pernicious thinking has already infected their minds.

Archbishop Lefebvre:
Quote
Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2022, 12:17:07 PM »
Father Chazal's position is a reflection of the majority view of theologians and should be the position for faithful Catholics resisting the conciliarist/modernist sect. Isn't it also essentially the position of the Dominicans of Avrille? And given that +Bp. Williamson wrote the fwd to his book, the position of His Excellency as well? I don't know about the SAJM or other "resistance" groups or priests.

But however you want to classify his position it is definitely not a sedevacantist position.

I agree that any version of R&R that says that the Church can promulgate poisonous rites or teachings is as much of a heresy as sedevacantism.

Father Chazal's position is very solid, and I agree that so-called "R&R" Catholics should rally aroud it.  I have no objections to it whatsoever.  Sure, technically it's not a sedevacantist position.  But it is very much akin to Bishop Guerard des Lauriers' thesis, commonly referred to as sede-privationism.  And that's where I think that politics come into play due to this long-standing strife between R&R and SVism, and the old wounds from it ... because the sedeprivationists and the sedeimpoundists (holders of Father Chazal's opinion) have a great deal in common and should be able to find that common ground.  I had hoped Father Chazal's position could be that bridge between the two sides that have been divided and polarized for so long now ... but these old attitudes die very hard.

And your final sentence explains why I feel that it is SO important.  So many Catholics have fallen into this heresy that the Church "can promulgate poisonous rites or teachings" ... certainly on this scale.  If it were possible for the Church's Magisterium to become THIS thoroughly polluted, that destroys the very foundations of the Catholic Church.  That's why I feel the arguments regarding infallibility in the strict sense are rather myopic and misleading.  We're not talking about an erroneous statement made in a single Papal Encyclical.  We're talking about the establishment of a religion and a institution that is simply not recognizable as the Catholic Church.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2022, 12:19:00 PM »
Yep.  That's pretty much what I find so weak about it. 

But that's accidental to the position itself.  Position itself is very solid.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2022, 12:20:59 PM »
What dogma of the Church does the sedevacantist position deny?  If you can't say, you should retract your rash assertion.

I'd prefer to avoid this debate for now.  I disagree that SVism is heresy ... as did Avrille, and as has Bishop Williamson ... but my hope here is simply to help the holders of classis R&R realize what a problem it is, and to at least prayerfully consider Father Chazal's position as upholding in principle the prerogatives of the Magisterium and the Papacy, and the Holiness of the Catholic Church.