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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 55151 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #540 on: June 01, 2023, 10:23:21 PM »
I guess I’m just a little skeptical that Karl rahner understood the fathers better than Lefebvre did

Rahner was a Modernist, but he was no dummy.  Rahner would have loved to find support for broader EENS among the Fathers, but he had the intellectual honesty to admit that it wasn't there.  Of course, for Rahner, a Modernist, that's not a huge problem, because Modernists believe that dogma can evolve, and he would see this new V2 orientation as a favorable development and progress.

But, in the comments he made about the V2 revolution on EENS, Rahner wasn't limiting himself to the Church Fathers, but to all subsequent Church teaching on EENS right up through Vatican II.  Rahner knew Vatican II very well and where the theological shifts were.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #541 on: June 01, 2023, 10:31:03 PM »
Rahner in Theological Investigations:
Quote
This optimism concerning salvation [of non-Catholics] appears to me one of the most noteworthy results of the Second Vatican Council. For when we consider the officially received theology concerning all these questions, which was more or less traditional right down to the Second Vatican Council, we can only wonder how few controversies arose during the Council with regard to these assertions of optimism concerning salvation, and wonder too at how little opposition the conservative wing of the Council brought to bear on this point, how all this took place without any setting of the stage or any great stir even though this doctrine marked a far more decisive phase in the development of the Church’s conscious awareness of her faith than, for instance, the doctrine of collegiality in the Church, the relationship between Scripture and tradition, the acceptance of the new exegesis, etc.

Rahner was right on the money, and I had been making this same observation for a long time before I found this quote.  Of course, he refers to theology being "more or less traditional right down to the Second Vatican Council."  In the years preceding the Council, it was mostly "less" traditional, and this explains why, to Rahner's amazement, "how little opposition the conservative wing of the Council [among the leaders of which was Archbishop Lefebvre] brought to bear on this point."  Rahner points out how this flew under the radar and didn't even create a stir among the conservatives.  That tells us something.  Father Feeney was right.

We have the undeniably thrice-defined (and oft reaffirmed) dogma of EENS.  There's only one way to increase this "optimism concerning salvation".

MAJOR:  There's no salvation outside the Church. [dogma]
MINOR:  Heretics, schismatics, and even infidels can be saved.
CONCLUSION:  Church can include heretics, schismatics, and even infidels.

In order to extend salvation to non-Catholics, since no one can deny the dogma EENS, one must extend the Church to be inclusive of non-Catholics also.

This is in fact none other than the subsistence ecclesiology of Vatican II.

Then, by extension, how can these non-Catholics be really Catholics?  By subjectivizing faith, and reducing faith to good will, sincerity, intention to do God's will, etc.

Religious Liberty then follows logically from this.

MAJOR:  Men have a right to please God and to save their souls.
MINOR:  Men please God and save their souls by following their consciences, even if they are erroneous.
CONCLUSION:  Men have a right to follow their consciences, even if erroneous.

If men save their souls even by following their false consciences and through false religions, then to hinder and to prevent them from doing so means hindering their salvation and their ability to please God.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #542 on: June 01, 2023, 10:45:58 PM »
The proof is that Karl Rahner was undoubtedly, unabashedly and proudly a Modernist.  If he had found even one Church Father who agreed with his V2-mindset, he would've exploited that quote to the nth degree.  It would've been repeated by every Modernist til they were blue in the face.  But they never found anything...

Rahner, Theological Investigations:
Quote
. . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.


Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #543 on: June 01, 2023, 10:54:53 PM »
The proof is that Karl Rahner was undoubtedly, unabashedly and proudly a Modernist.  If he had found even one Church Father who agreed with his V2-mindset, he would've exploited that quote to the nth degree.  It would've been repeated by every Modernist til they were blue in the face.  But they never found anything...
That would sorta undermine the principle of modernism to go with a direct quote tho 

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #544 on: June 01, 2023, 10:55:00 PM »
I am not an expert, but I think that it is logical to imagine that the Modernists who created the Council and the post-Council Church were theologians of a very high caliber. You have to undestand something very well to be able to destroy it from the inside.

People of an (apparently) lower intellect like Pope Paul VI of Pope Francis could never conceive such evil. They just go along with it.

You need some kind of Jєωιѕн or Jєωιѕн inspired evil intelligence to be able to do such a thing.

So, I think that it is very possible that Karl Rahner had a better grasp of theology in general then Abp. Lefebvre. he understood it better, and that is why he was so good at destroying it.