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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 56055 times)

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #495 on: June 01, 2023, 07:17:21 AM »
Yes, as I have repeated several times.  How about your answer to how the atheist in the above hypothetical scenario can be saved?  No Catholic theologian has ever held that an atheist can be saved, requiring at least a minimum of explicit faith in the Rewarder/Punisher God.

For infants, in a special case, this supernatural virtue is infused in the soul, along with supernatural charity.  But for adults it does not work this way.  If an atheist adult were baptized, say unwillingly, would he have the supernatural virtue of faith or charity?  Of course not.  If he did not assent to the truths of the faith, and, in short, have all the dispositions necessary, as described by the Council of Trent, while he would receive the Baptismal character, he would not receive supernatural faith or charity.  That's because FOR ADULTS a cooperation of the will is required.

Infants are dispensed from this obligation, since they cannot actively cooperate with their will and their intellect.  But once they reach the age of reason, they are then required to cooperate.  If they do not cooperate, then they are in the same state as the adult above who was baptized without the proper dispositions.

Virtues are also known as habits.  Supernatural faith and supernatural charity are habits, and they are potencies.  Upon reaching the age of reason, however, what was a mere potency in the infant has to be "activated" and cooperated with, or the potency fades away, just as any habit or virtue fades away if it's not exercised.  This is true of the natural "virtues" as well.  If they are not exercised, the potency eventually fades, and the virtue dies.  Virtues need to be exercised to be kept alive.

Can you please cite a Church docuмent explaining how grace is lost without sin?

Offline Stubborn

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #496 on: June 01, 2023, 07:28:32 AM »
Can you please cite a Church docuмent explaining how grace is lost without sin?
John 16:8-9 And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.  9 Of sin: because they believed not in me. 

What is it you don't get about it being a sin to not believe in Christ?


Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #497 on: June 01, 2023, 07:37:58 AM »
John 16:8-9 And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.  9 Of sin: because they believed not in me.

What is it you don't get about it being a sin to not believe in Christ?

Probably the same thing I don’t get about how I can lose grace by committing a mortal without the requisite full knowledge.

Can you please cite Church teaching explaining it to me?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #498 on: June 01, 2023, 07:39:57 AM »
Can you please cite a Church docuмent explaining how grace is lost without sin?

Explain how the atheist above can be saved.  You've dodged that question multiple times now.

Theologians are unanimous that for adults there can be no supernatural faith without explicit belief in at least the Rewarder God, with most holding that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, are absolutely necessary by necessity of means in order to have supernatural faith.

Adults are required to have the proper dispositions for Baptism in order for the Sacrament to confer supernatural faith and charity.  Period.  In an infant, however, these infused supernatural virtues are latent until such as time as the individual reaches the age of reason, at which time he too is required to have the necessary dispositions for Baptism.

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #499 on: June 01, 2023, 07:53:53 AM »
Explain how the atheist above can be saved.  You'd dodged that question multiple times now.

Theologians are unanimous that for adults there can be no supernatural faith without explicit belief in at least the Rewarder God, with most holding that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, are absolutely necessary by necessity of means in order to have supernatural faith.

Adults are required to have the proper dispositions for Baptism in order for the Sacrament to confer supernatural faith and charity.  Period.  In an infant, however, these infused supernatural virtues are latent until such as time as the individual reaches the age of reason, at which time he too is required to have the necessary dispositions for Baptism.

Is that a “no?”