Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 56200 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #470 on: May 31, 2023, 03:27:05 PM »
There are no schismatics in the state of grace, cf. Unam Sanctam.

You aren’t answering the question:

If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #471 on: May 31, 2023, 03:33:59 PM »
You aren’t answering the question:

If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?
I've answered already what my opinion is. I think there are only two possible options.

The first is the opinion of St. Thomas who says they will commit some sin and lose the state of grace because of it or if they don't they will be led into the Church by God.

The other option is that as soon as the age of reason is reached if one does not hold the Catholic faith he loses the state of grace and ceases to be a member of the Church.

I don't really care about hypothetical scenarios and how exactly things work out. I care about the dogmas of the faith which must be known and believed, such as the dogma that the Carholic faith is necessary for salvation.

So, are there certain mysteries which are necessary to be known by a necessity of means by those possessed of reason in order to be numbered among the elect?


Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #472 on: May 31, 2023, 03:47:44 PM »
The other option is that as soon as the age of reason is reached if one does not hold the Catholic faith he loses the state of grace and ceases to be a member of the Church.

And I'm asking you to explain how this is even possible, if one is invincibly ignorant (i.e., can't commit a mortal sin to fall from said grace).



Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #473 on: May 31, 2023, 04:06:28 PM »
And I'm asking you to explain how this is even possible, if one is invincibly ignorant (i.e., can't commit a mortal sin to fall from said grace).
I reject the premise that one can't sin through ignorance as the condemned statement of Abelard proves and I also would like to point out that there are many ways to commit mortal sin.

The first option is definitely an acceptable position even if the second is incorrect, which is possible.

What isn't possible is for a non-Catholic to go to heaven because every human creature by absolute necessity must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, possess the Catholic faith and be inside the Church.

I'm looking forward to seeing your answer tomorrow.

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #474 on: May 31, 2023, 04:11:05 PM »
I reject the premise that one can't sin through ignorance as the condemned statement of Abelard proves and I also would like to point out that there are many ways to commit mortal sin.

The first option is definitely an acceptable position even if the second is incorrect, which is possible.

What isn't possible is for a non-Catholic to go to heaven because every human creature by absolute necessity must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, possess the Catholic faith and be inside the Church.

I'm looking forward to seeing your answer tomorrow.

Abelard did not specify mortal sin, which is impossible in a state of ignorance (either that, or all the manuals have been wrong about how one commits a mortal sin for a millenium, and we're all damned).  Venial sin does not rob the soul of grace, but that is all one ignorant can do.  So the Abelard quote does not help you, as previously mentioned.

So we return yet again to the question:

If one is invincibly ignorant, by what means is grace forfeited (since full knowledge is necessary for the grave sin by which the grace is lost)?

Conversely, if the grace is not forfeited, how would such a one be damned?