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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 39249 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2022, 04:47:36 PM »
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  • So you can make a judgment that the "pope" is not worthy of your obedience but you can't make a judgment about why he is not worthy of your obedience?  It's not that hard to research the issue. 
    Easy, logical Catholic argumentation for sedevacantism (and what is already utilized by everyone in the SSPX, Resistance, and Chazalian-sede-but-it's-not-really-sede-otherwise-people-would-get-upset camp).

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #46 on: September 23, 2022, 05:05:15 PM »
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  • Easy, logical Catholic argumentation for sedevacantism (and what is already utilized by everyone in the SSPX, Resistance, and Chazalian-sede-but-it's-not-really-sede-otherwise-people-would-get-upset camp).
    It really does not take much to understand. You can reduce the argument down to two simple statements:

    Catholics are required to be baptized and profess the true Faith (Pope Pius XII formula, Mystici Corporis 22) in order to remain Catholics. "Pope" Francis is baptized, but does not profess the true Faith. Therefore, he is not a Catholic.

    Only members of the Body can hold Catholic office (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum 15). "Pope" Francis is not a Catholic. Therefore, he is not a legitimate Pope.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #47 on: September 23, 2022, 05:06:58 PM »
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  • Yeah.  Sound Catholic doctrine.  What's the big deal, I wonder?

    Offline mcollier

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #48 on: September 23, 2022, 08:49:12 PM »
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  • What dogma of the Church does the sedevacantist position deny?  If you can't say, you should retract your rash assertion.
    If there has been no pope since John XXIII or Paul VI then there are no more bishops with jurisdiction which means no more apostolicity which is one of the four marks of the Church. This is heretical. 

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #49 on: September 23, 2022, 10:34:42 PM »
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  • If there has been no pope since John XXIII or Paul VI then there are no more bishops with jurisdiction which means no more apostolicity which is one of the four marks of the Church. This is heretical.

    First of all, bishops with jurisdiction (ordinaries) is a separate issue from a vacant Roman See.  You could still believe that the Roman See is vacant without asserting that all the other sees are vacant as well.  The sede vacantist position only asserts that the Roman See is vacant at the moment because the Novus Ordo apostate claiming the see is not capable of possessing the office.  Sedes don't all agree on the status of J23 and even if most of them do agree that he was a heretic, they don't all agree on whether or not all the other sees are vacant.  Second, please provide a source for your contention that all the sees being vacant at the same time is equivalent to an end to the mark of apostolicity for the Church.  It's pretty bold of you to go around accusing people of heresy when you haven't even established that they have indirectly denied a dogma never mind that you haven't even begun to establish that sedes deny the necessity of the mark of apostolicity.  I assure you, no knowledgeable sede denies that the Church will always have the mark of apostolicity.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #50 on: September 24, 2022, 05:02:28 AM »
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  • Quote
    So you can make a judgment that the "pope" is not worthy of your obedience but you can't make a judgment about why he is not worthy of your obedience?  It's not that hard to research the issue.


    Of course we make a judgement, because in knowing our holy faith, we know what offends God even when it doesn't offend the pope, or the pope glories in it and wants us to follow along. 

    I always find it incredible that this needs explaining to trads at all.

    After the example of St. Thomas More: "We remain the popes' good subjects, but God's first." You act as if this is error, or heresy or evil or something. It's not evil, IT'S CATHOLIC.

    Meanwhile, some sedes have said they'd forsake the true faith for the new faith if they were convinced the pope is the pope. Talk about reckless abandon. This idea bespeaks of having a faith that is very weak and fruitless, certainly not worth much at all when for any reason, one is ready and willing to just throw whatever faith they have away.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #51 on: September 24, 2022, 05:40:57 AM »
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  • I must say that this comes right out of a comic book because it would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic.

    But the answer to the question posed in the title of this thread is, there is no reason to get behind any flavor of sedeism. With the grace of God and all the helps He gave us, we can live a Catholic life and die a happy death and strive to save our souls without the self inflicted burden of concerning ourselves with something we can do nothing whatsoever about other than pray daily for the pope, which is the duty of every Catholic for a reason.

    Why not try doing this sometime?
    Agreed, the modernists have the numbers and their popes. 

    You are right, we can't change that. Better to pray and practice Catholicism. Obsessing over the modernists has no spiritual benefit.

    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #52 on: September 24, 2022, 05:56:59 AM »
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  • The evil of modernism is on going. People being instruments of this evil are the direct cause of the perpetual trainwreck.  Those individuals hold positions that they use to continue the evil against Christ and his faithful.  There names shouldn't even be mentioned unless in prayer for conversion or their demise.  Obviously we hope for their final perseverance.  The Thesis is one possible understanding of the state of the church.  

    I see a parallel understanding of how and why most medical doctors dropped the ball over these last couple of years.  Yes they lost my respect for their betrayal.


    Offline Melanie

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #53 on: September 24, 2022, 08:11:47 AM »
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  • After the example of St. Thomas More: "We remain the popes' good subjects, but God's first." You act as if this is error, or heresy or evil or something. It's not evil, IT'S CATHOLIC.
    But, this is not what he said.  The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth not the King of England.  This is a significant distinction which changes your example to not exactly being Catholic at all.  St. Thomas More was, “the King’s good servant, but God’s first.”  And we all know that he was a martyr because of this, for being subject to God in His Vicar of Christ on earth, the Pope.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #54 on: September 24, 2022, 10:23:28 AM »
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  • Nope, it does not matter to either of us, you should have quoted the rest of my post.

    I am subject to the pope, but God first. It's not the least bit complicated and is summed up beautifully in my sig.

    Agreed. And recognizing that we have a pope is a big part of being subject to him.

    IMO, God has allowed a Modernist sect to occupy the Church. We tend to place the blame all on human error or heresy, but since God has allowed it, it would seem that certain amount of prudence is required. We have to do what we can to still be loyal to the papacy, and that means not going to the extreme of believing that there's no pope. (Though I'm not against Catholics, in principle, adopting sedevacantism - it's when they push it on everyone else that I have a problem, and that happens a lot around here - like this thread).

    And yes, we are subject to God first. As you say, it's not complicated. It seems that sedevacantism is a lot more complicated.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #55 on: September 24, 2022, 11:44:51 AM »
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  • Hi Ladislaus, I myself am open to Fr. Chazal's thesis. Can you please explain what it is? Is it to say that these vatican 2 popes don't have any authority because of their manifest heresies, but that they remain Pope? Some would say that this contradicts vatican 1. Would this also mean that any act by Francis that is for the common good, would be supplied the jurisdiction?

    Of course.  Sorry, I've been busy and haven't been on for a while.  In short, Father Chazal holds that Bergoglio (and his predecessors) lack papal authority on account of their manifest heresy.  So, his position differs from classic R&R in that the latter holds that the V2 papal claimants retain papal authority but can be disobeyed on a case-by-case basis.  He holds that they remain in possession of the papal office but are impounded on account of their heresy.  It's not unlike the position promoted by Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.

    So the reason Father Chazal's position is groundbreaking from the R&R perspective is that it avoids having to attribute this rampant pollution of the Church's Magisterium and public worship to papal authority.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #56 on: September 24, 2022, 12:05:10 PM »
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  • 5. I'm not dissing or even rejecting Fr. Chazal's position. I just don't have A) the training or B) the objective knowledge of the situation to know if it's correct or not.

    6. We shouldn't get the mindset that we need to be wearing the right jersey (having the right opinion on every nuance of the Crisis) to save our soul. Even if I was fervently excited about Fr. Chazal's writings, then what? I still have to choose from the AVAILABLE positions that offer Mass in my country.

    OK.  Now, the rest of your post was a reference more to sedevacatism proper, etc.

    Here's where it matters, Matthew, and why I feel that Father Chazal's position is so important.

    We all agree that the Crisis is not just about the Mass and the Sacraments, but it's about the faith.  Yet the problem with classic R&R, the biggest reason that there are sedevacantists in the first place, is the attribution of this degree of decay to legitimate Catholic authority.  It sets up a theology regarding the papacy and regarding Catholic ecclesiology that is much more Old Catolic than it is Catholic.  THAT is the problem with classic R&R; it's a slightly repackaged form of Old Catholicism.  It puts the very faith we're trying to preserve in great peril.

    At the end of the day, on one level, you're right that the "positions" aren't critical ... but the PRINCIPLES behind SOME of the positions actually undermine Catholic faith, and in particular the classic R&R position.  As far as I'm concerned, one could argue that Montini was not acting freely because he was blackemailed, heck, one could hold that Montini was replaced by a double, ... whatever, really.  I myself believe that Cardinal Siri was the legitimate pope until his death in 1989.  But whatever position we hold cannot undermine the prerogatives and authority of the Catholic Magisterium.  We cannot throw the Church under the bus to ... preserve the Church.  There is absolutely NOTHING Traditional about claiming that Catholics can freely reject the Magisterium of an Ecuмenical Council, of 60+ years of papal Magisterium, reject the public worship of the Church as harmful to souls and offensive to God, reject many (most?) of the "saints" canonized by the Church, etc.  I defy anyone to find any Catholic theologian who ever taught this in the entire history of the Church.  In fact, the claims of the Prots and the Old Catholics echo nearly verbatim the assertion that the current Church had departed from the purity of Tradition.  In fact, the Old Catholic Declaration of Utrecht is repeated nearly verbatim on a daily basis by the adherents of classic R&R, right down to starting with that famous citation from St. Vincent of Lerins.

    Father Chazal's position eliminates the need to throw the prerogatives of the Church and the Magisterium under the bus.  Archbishop Lefebvre clearly echoed Catholic teaching that the Papacy, that Ecuмenical Councils, that the Magisterium in general, and that the Church's public worship, are all guided by the Holy Spirit, and he says to sedevancantists, "I agree with you," that this degree of destruction is not possible given this guidance by and protection of the Holy Spirit.  This is expressed in the famous audio that Father Ringrose posted when he became (some flavor of) sedevacantist.  This is where people become sedevacantists.  They return to Tradition and at some point start reading pre-Vatican II theology, and realize that this is the constant TRADITIONAL teaching of the Church.  So, Archibishop Lefebvre, then, conceding this principle and agreeing with sedevacantists (on their Major), went through a few possible explanations, dismissing most of them as unlikely, and concluded with saying that SV is possible.  He simply never had enough of a confidece that this was THE answer to come out with it.  But he didn't rule it out.  Yet the important thing is that he affirmed without hesitation the principle that the protection of the Holy Spirit over the Church and the Papacy preclude Vatican II and the NOM having been produced by legitimate papal authority exercised freely.

    So getting behind an explanation such as Father Chazal's is absolute critical to defend Traditional Catholic teaching regarding the nature of the Church and the Papacy ... and to avoid sliding into a repackaged Old Catholicism.

    And if people don't see the problem, or don't understand why it "matters," then that's a sign of how far this pernicious thinking has already infected their minds.

    Archbishop Lefebvre:
    Quote
    Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #57 on: September 24, 2022, 12:17:07 PM »
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  • Father Chazal's position is a reflection of the majority view of theologians and should be the position for faithful Catholics resisting the conciliarist/modernist sect. Isn't it also essentially the position of the Dominicans of Avrille? And given that +Bp. Williamson wrote the fwd to his book, the position of His Excellency as well? I don't know about the SAJM or other "resistance" groups or priests.

    But however you want to classify his position it is definitely not a sedevacantist position.

    I agree that any version of R&R that says that the Church can promulgate poisonous rites or teachings is as much of a heresy as sedevacantism.

    Father Chazal's position is very solid, and I agree that so-called "R&R" Catholics should rally aroud it.  I have no objections to it whatsoever.  Sure, technically it's not a sedevacantist position.  But it is very much akin to Bishop Guerard des Lauriers' thesis, commonly referred to as sede-privationism.  And that's where I think that politics come into play due to this long-standing strife between R&R and SVism, and the old wounds from it ... because the sedeprivationists and the sedeimpoundists (holders of Father Chazal's opinion) have a great deal in common and should be able to find that common ground.  I had hoped Father Chazal's position could be that bridge between the two sides that have been divided and polarized for so long now ... but these old attitudes die very hard.

    And your final sentence explains why I feel that it is SO important.  So many Catholics have fallen into this heresy that the Church "can promulgate poisonous rites or teachings" ... certainly on this scale.  If it were possible for the Church's Magisterium to become THIS thoroughly polluted, that destroys the very foundations of the Catholic Church.  That's why I feel the arguments regarding infallibility in the strict sense are rather myopic and misleading.  We're not talking about an erroneous statement made in a single Papal Encyclical.  We're talking about the establishment of a religion and a institution that is simply not recognizable as the Catholic Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #58 on: September 24, 2022, 12:19:00 PM »
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  • Yep.  That's pretty much what I find so weak about it. 

    But that's accidental to the position itself.  Position itself is very solid.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #59 on: September 24, 2022, 12:20:59 PM »
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  • What dogma of the Church does the sedevacantist position deny?  If you can't say, you should retract your rash assertion.

    I'd prefer to avoid this debate for now.  I disagree that SVism is heresy ... as did Avrille, and as has Bishop Williamson ... but my hope here is simply to help the holders of classis R&R realize what a problem it is, and to at least prayerfully consider Father Chazal's position as upholding in principle the prerogatives of the Magisterium and the Papacy, and the Holiness of the Catholic Church.