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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 56197 times)

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #365 on: May 31, 2023, 06:45:32 AM »
This 5-year-old Greek Orthodox child is most certainly a member of the visible Church ... and this has been taught by the Magisterium.  This is precisely where the wheels come off LaCosaSalza's false theology.  By having been baptized, this visible Sacrament renders him a member of the Visible Church ... until such as time as he professes heresy and or schism (upon having reached the age of reason).  Until such as time as this child reaches the age of reason, he's incapable of breaking from the Church by the profession of heresy and schism.

Congratulations, though, as with your articulation of the invisible Church you have just embraced all of Vatican II.

Hmm.  It sounds to me like you are saying all the validly baptized, of whatever sect, are members of the Church (at least until the age of reason, when, despite their invincible ignorance, they are automatically separated and damnable).  Is that correct?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #366 on: May 31, 2023, 06:49:32 AM »
Hmm.  It sounds to me like you are saying all the validly baptized, of whatever sect, are members of the Church (at least until the age of reason, when, despite their invincible ignorance, they are automatically separated and damnable).  Is that correct?

That is correct.  Once an individual reaches the age of reason, then it is required to actively profess the faith.  Take the example of some child of animists who was baptized by a missionary, but then otherwise continues to be raised an animist.  Until he reaches the age of reason, the infused supernatural virtue of faith remains.  But once he has reached the age of reason, and this infused virtue is not confirmed by actual expression of it, the supernatural virtue of faith is lost.  Same thing with those who grow up as heretics or schismatics.  Once they reach the age of reason and do not profess the true faith, this infused supernatural virtue is lost.


Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #367 on: May 31, 2023, 06:49:45 AM »
This 5-year-old Greek Orthodox child is most certainly a member of the visible Church ... and this has been taught by the Magisterium.  This is precisely where the wheels come off LaCosaSalza's false theology.  By having been baptized, this visible Sacrament renders him a member of the Visible Church ... until such as time as he professes heresy and or schism (upon having reached the age of reason).  Until such as time as this child reaches the age of reason, he's incapable of breaking from the Church by the profession of heresy and schism.

Congratulations, though, as with your articulation of the invisible Church you have just embraced all of Vatican II.

As Monsignor Fenton clearly details, Pius XII rejected the notion of an invisible Church that is not co-extensive with the visible Catholic Church.

St. Robert Bellarmine clearly laid out the criteria for belonging to the Visible Church.

Communion in the Sacraments, profession of the true faith, and submission to the Holy See.  This 5-year-old has been joined to the visible Church through the Sacrament of Baptism.  While he does not actively profess the faith or submission to the Holy See, these are there through the infused virtues of faith and charity.  While these are essentially visible things, they can be there virtually or by habit, even if not always actively manifested.  This is akin to my example before of human beings being essentially soul and body, even while they are in Heaven (currently) without happening to have an actual body.  And the same thing applies to the visibility of the Church.  While the Church and the hierarchy are essentially visible, this does not preclude that for a time the See might be vacant or that there may be confusion about where the actual hierarchy are (such as during the Great Western Schism).

You are conflating Rahner’s visible/invisible distinction with the Catholic distinction between body/soul.

They are not the same thing.

The difference between the two is that for Rahner’s “anonymous Christianity,” sanctifying grace is either not required or unavoidably ubiquitous, whereas the body/soul distinction is predicated upon possession of sanctifying grace.

Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #368 on: May 31, 2023, 06:52:43 AM »
That is correct.  Once an individual reaches the age of reason, then it is required to actively profess the faith.  Take the example of some child of animists who was baptized by a missionary, but then otherwise continues to be raised an animist.  Until he reaches the age of reason, the infused supernatural virtue of faith remains.  But once he has reached the age of reason, and this infused virtue is not confirmed by actual expression of it, the supernatural virtue of faith is lost.  Same thing with those who grow up as heretics or schismatics.  Once they reach the age of reason and do not profess the true faith, this infused supernatural virtue is lost.

1) Can you provide magisterial sources declaring schismatic infants are members of the visible Church?

2) Can you provide magisterial sources declaring schismatic children forfeit grace at the age of reason?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #369 on: May 31, 2023, 06:59:48 AM »
You are conflating Rahner’s visible/invisible distinction with the Catholic distinction between body/soul.

They are not the same thing.

The difference between the two is that for Rahner’s “anonymous Christianity,” sanctifying grace is either not required or unavoidably ubiquitous, whereas the body/soul distinction is predicated upon possession of sanctifying grace.

You're completely wrong about Rahner's "Anonymous Christianity", as Rahner said no such thing.  Rahner's "Anonymous Christianity" was, alas, no different than Archbishop Lefebvre's articulation of "Baptism of Desire".

Msgr. Fenton clearly details the problem with not having the soul of the Church being co-extensive with the Body of the Church.  Once you have a soul that extends outside the Body, then those who belong to the "soul" of the Church (but not the Body) are therefore united invisibly to the Church.