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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 41291 times)

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Offline Miser Peccator

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #225 on: May 18, 2023, 07:01:44 PM »
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  • You used the word "brazen." Good word, meaning he's not ashamed of "coming out" so to speak. The other guys you mentioned, if heretics at all, were more "secretive." They stayed "in the closet," as they say. You might even use the word "occult" to describe the "heresies" of those predecessors of Bergoglio.



    Miracle of the Sun beat me to it. ;)


    I didn't downvote you but this just doesn't look secretive to me:






    Benedict XVI sets new papal record for mosque visits

    https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/benedict-xvi-sets-new-papal-record-mosque-visits


    He didn't just visit he prayed there:


    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, pope says
    https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says



    But he also said Latin Mass, so he was an apostate saying Latin Mass and fooled many.  (Kind of like Vigano)


    The operation of error you refer to appears to have kept many in a state of confusion about it but he also had a team of propagandists who misled Traditional minded Catholics.

    The bottom line is that everyone who signed the docs at VII created a pantheon of gods which still allows

    Traditional minded Catholics to practice "their faith"

    while "subsisting in"

    the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr church of Chrislam.
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #226 on: May 18, 2023, 07:07:06 PM »
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  • You used the word "brazen." Good word, meaning he's not ashamed of "coming out" so to speak. The other guys you mentioned, if heretics at all, were more "secretive." They stayed "in the closet," as they say. You might even use the word "occult" to describe the "heresies" of those predecessors of Bergoglio.

    Uhm, no, I used brazen and not "occult" because there was nothing occult about the heresies of Montini, Wojtyla, and Ratzinger.  They're out there in public for all to see, but the popular perception of them as heretics was not there due to their playing a role.


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #227 on: May 18, 2023, 07:10:01 PM »
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  • Miracle of the Sun beat me to it. ;)

    Yes, Ratzinger was/is the poster child for Vatican II Modernists who left us with miles of terrible writings.  Not 'secretive' by any stretch. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #228 on: May 18, 2023, 07:10:49 PM »
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  • So, one will need "to prove" that a lawfully-elected Pope manifestly taught formal heresy and was obstinate in that teaching before he loses his office. That is, if you use Bellarmine and Canon Law as your guide.

    Many hours have been spent digging through obscure writings of those earlier Popes. They bring up many statements that approach heresy. But they fail to establish manifest formal heresy as required by Bellarmine. With Bergoglio, we do not have that problem.

    No, one needn't "prove" anything.  I care nothing about the legal status of these papal claimants.  I care about the heretical allegation that a legitimate popes of sound mind and acting freely can destroy the Magisterium and the Mass, and that has precious little to do with the "opinions".  You can hold whatever theory you want ... that Montini was replaced by a double, drugged, or blackmailed for sodomy.  But you cannot keep promoting heresy against the constitution of the Church.

    "Obscure writings" my foot.  Montini, Wojtyla, and Ratzinger routinely taught heresy in a public capacity.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #229 on: May 18, 2023, 07:11:54 PM »
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  • Yes, Ratzinger was/is the poster child for Vatican II Modernists who left us with miles of terrible writings.  Not 'secretive' by any stretch.

    Right.  Angelus' ignorance of the public writings of Montini, Wojtyla, and Ratzinger doesn't make them "secretive" or "occult" or "obscure."


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #230 on: May 18, 2023, 07:23:56 PM »
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  • Right.  Angelus' ignorance of the public writings of Montini, Wojtyla, and Ratzinger doesn't make them "secretive" or "occult" or "obscure."

    No need to go into all of their public writings.

    Anyone who signed on, accepts, or promulgates VII is an apostate.
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #231 on: May 18, 2023, 08:24:03 PM »
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  • Yes, glad you mentioned Bergoglio, since he's the only one that really matters at the moment.

    You used the word "brazen." Good word, meaning he's not ashamed of "coming out" so to speak. The other guys you mentioned, if heretics at all, were more "secretive." They stayed "in the closet," as they say. You might even use the word "occult" to describe the "heresies" of those predecessors of Bergoglio.

    But Bellarmine's Fifth Opinion, the one he calls "true," says that "secret" or "occult" heresy is not enough for the ipso facto loss of office. Those who hold the Second Opinion, rejected by Bellarmine, hold that "secret" heretics lose their office. Bellarmine says,

    So, one will need "to prove" that a lawfully-elected Pope manifestly taught formal heresy and was obstinate in that teaching before he loses his office. That is, if you use Bellarmine and Canon Law as your guide.

    Many hours have been spent digging through obscure writings of those earlier Popes. They bring up many statements that approach heresy. But they fail to establish manifest formal heresy as required by Bellarmine. With Bergoglio, we do not have that problem.
    Every single one of them taught and promoted a false religion to the Universal Church.  This is not about personal heresies.  They are popes of a different religion.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #232 on: May 19, 2023, 11:06:12 AM »
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  • :facepalm:  If it were THAT simple, then +Bellarmine and everyone else wasted decades debating/writing about the issue.  :facepalm:

    St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching was confirmed by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #233 on: May 19, 2023, 11:07:16 AM »
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  • To be fair, St Robert Bellarmine actually didn't believe a true pope COULD fall into heresy because Christ would not allow his faith to fail. 

    You are correct.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #234 on: May 19, 2023, 11:08:42 AM »
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  • Actually, it depends.  An abortion that occurs because of a surgery to the mother is not a sin.  But, voluntary abortion, yes, is always intrinsically wrong.

    Abortion is the DIRECT killing of the unborn.  It is evil in all cases.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #235 on: May 19, 2023, 11:15:22 AM »
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  • https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/question-papal-heresy-part-6b

    Fr. Gleize splits the matter in two: the prudential and the speculative.

    1. Prudential: Archbishop Lefebvre said "recognize" and pray for "the Pope," meaning whoever the Pope is. Don't discuss deposing or loss of office. Not important. Just pray and "resist" on certain things to be decided by "prudence."

    2. Speculative: Gleize takes Billot as his guide over Bellarmine and Cajetan. He says that Billot makes it clear that "Cajetan’s explanation in reality does not avoid saying that the Church is above the pope." This principle, then, that one can NEVER SAY that "the Church is above the pope" is sacrosanct for Fr. Gleize and the SSPX. Therefore, all Speculative attempts (e.g., Bellarmine, et. al.) are worthless to the extent that they violate that principle.

    So, as I see it, the SSPX position, formulated by Fr. Gleize amounts to The Third Opinion listed by Bellarmine. Since there is actually no way to resolve the speculative problem, Fr. Gleize would say, one must resort to the prudential solution of Abp. Lefebvre, i.e., to always Recognize and Resist (when we feel like it).

    Thank you for your explanation.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #236 on: May 19, 2023, 11:19:39 AM »
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  • Many hours have been spent digging through obscure writings of those earlier Popes. They bring up many statements that approach heresy. But they fail to establish manifest formal heresy as required by Bellarmine. With Bergoglio, we do not have that problem.

    Fr. Paul Kramer, in Volume II, defends Joseph Ratzinger from those who accuse him of public manifest formal heresy.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #237 on: May 19, 2023, 02:13:48 PM »
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  • Fr. Paul Kramer, in Volume II, defends Joseph Ratzinger from those who accuse him of public manifest formal heresy.

    CK,

    And what is your opinion of the defense?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #238 on: May 19, 2023, 02:57:00 PM »
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  • CK,

    And what is your opinion of the defense?


    "Therefore, it cannot be maintained that Joseph Ratzinger is a heretic, on the basis of the specious and false pretext that he has asserted heretical disbelief in dogmas by incorrectly explicating those dogmas which in their proper content include in themselves the notion of created substance composed of matter and form, or that he has explained other dogmas in such a manner that involves his argument in some basic contradiction. He has professed belief in the dogmas, but has explained them in a logically incoherent and sometimes contradictory manner, but without directly, immediately, explicitly, and knowingly asserting disbelief in the dogmas themselves, which alone would be an indicium of formal heresy that constitutes proof of formal heresy; yet, as I have explained, his exposition on their meaning contain propositions which, considered in themselves, contain material heresy in that the contrary part of his contradictory assertions are opposed to the dogmas which he does profess, and, due to his faulty understanding of the philosophical concepts which underlie some dogmas, he does not always profess those dogmas according to their proper sense as the Church has defined them. Hence, there are not to be found the indicia of formal heresy in the writings of Joseph Ratzinger, who is still at present, Pope Benedict XVI, the Vicar of Christ on earth."

    Kramer, Paul. On the true and the false pope: The case against Bergoglio (pp. 602-603). Gondolin Press. Kindle Edition.

    I agree with Fr. Paul Kramer.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #239 on: May 19, 2023, 03:20:02 PM »
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  • "Therefore, it cannot be maintained that Joseph Ratzinger is a heretic, on the basis of the specious and false pretext that he has asserted heretical disbelief in dogmas by incorrectly explicating those dogmas which in their proper content include in themselves the notion of created substance composed of matter and form, or that he has explained other dogmas in such a manner that involves his argument in some basic contradiction. He has professed belief in the dogmas, but has explained them in a logically incoherent and sometimes contradictory manner, but without directly, immediately, explicitly, and knowingly asserting disbelief in the dogmas themselves, which alone would be an indicium of formal heresy that constitutes proof of formal heresy; yet, as I have explained, his exposition on their meaning contain propositions which, considered in themselves, contain material heresy in that the contrary part of his contradictory assertions are opposed to the dogmas which he does profess, and, due to his faulty understanding of the philosophical concepts which underlie some dogmas, he does not always profess those dogmas according to their proper sense as the Church has defined them. Hence, there are not to be found the indicia of formal heresy in the writings of Joseph Ratzinger, who is still at present, Pope Benedict XVI, the Vicar of Christ on earth."

    Kramer, Paul. On the true and the false pope: The case against Bergoglio (pp. 602-603). Gondolin Press. Kindle Edition.

    I agree with Fr. Paul Kramer.

    Thank you. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.