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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 27712 times)

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Offline PAT317

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #135 on: September 27, 2022, 09:26:27 AM »
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  • You labeled this as "Ladislaus' glossary" ... and that is what I took exception to, the implication that these are terms that I somehow coined or invented.

    Only thing that's somewhat unique to myself is the distinction between Father Chazal and classic R&R, but I have explained that repeatedly on this thread.  It is in fact, the entire point of the thread, pointing out that Father Chazal departs from the predominant R&R model, which hold that the popes have authority but may be disobeyed on case-by-case basis.  As for not all Traditional Catholics defining things this way, what I described is in fact that way R&R has been defined by its proponents for at least the past 20 years.  Archbishop Lefebvre's position was much more nuanced, as I have also pointed out on this thread, but among his followers, the subtleties have been lost, and the way it's repeatedly been defined is that we acknowledge the pope and his authority, but disobey various teaching/commands that are contrary to Tradition.

    I didn't mean to imply that you coined the terms at all.  I just meant what I said, that different Trads understand the terms differently.  I bet if I took a survey, asking Trads to write down their definitions of the terms, including you, +Sanborn, & Fr. Chazal, we would get a variety of different answers.  Anyway, if this thread had been started by Bp. Sanborn, I would have written "+Sanborn's glossary", and likewise with whatever poster started the thread.  I am sorry if you took it as some sort of personal slam, which I did not intend at all. 




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    And, yes, all Trads who are informed know what is meant by sedeprivationism. 


    Not many of the Trads I know.  



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #136 on: September 27, 2022, 10:52:30 AM »
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  • That would be refreshing: an actual quoting, and discussion, of the specific language in Pastor Aeternus.
    Since what he claims is taught at V1 is really not taught at V1, when he does not post what he claims is taught at V1 it will be because it's not taught at V1, but he will not let that stop him.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #137 on: September 27, 2022, 11:23:29 AM »
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  • Since what he claims is taught at V1 is really not taught at V1, when he does not post what he claims is taught at V1 it will be because it's not taught at V1, but he will not let that stop him.

    We will see. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #138 on: September 27, 2022, 12:41:35 PM »
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  • Vatican I gave 2 names of 2 popes, one being Honorius, as an anti-pope ,to show that popes can err.  Popes are given Graces for their position "might" they accept these graces for their Divine Office. Might is the word used to show the free will of popes.  Would this not be apart of the Papal Infallibility definition?  These anti-popes were not judged.  It was their outward fruits. Manifest heresies.  Would it be correct to say that those who say the seat is vacant, are saying the same ,as saying anti-pope?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #139 on: December 07, 2022, 12:20:32 PM »
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  • So, the chief problem that some of us have with R&R is that R&R undermines and guts the foundations of the Magisterium and the papacy, throwing the Church under the proverbial bus in order to save Bergoglio et al., to have the comfort of some clown prancing aroud in white vestments.

    But Father Chazal has thrown you a lifeline.  By adopting his sede-impoundist views, you don't have to attribute this evil to legitimate Catholic authority and therefore bring ill repute on the Church.

    So please explain why you refuse to get behind Father Chazal's position ... which is perfectly acceptable to most "sedevacantists" in that it avoids the chief problem with R&R that most SVs have.  It could also serve as a bridge behind the two camps.

    So please explain why, given the Chazal option, you persist in smearing the Holy Catholic Church and the Catholic papacy as being responsible for the evils of the Conciliar erea.  What's wrong with it that you find it unacceptable?

    If R&R would rally around Father Chazal, then there's no longer any serious divide among Traditional Catholics, and the major differences would reduce to an academic debate regarding the finer points of sede-impoundism vs sede-privationism.

    But does Fr. Chazal believe the Conciliar Church, with all its cardinals, bishops, and priests is not the Catholic Church?

    I absolutely agree with Fr. Chazal that Bergolio is a heretic who can be ignored - cf. Paul IV, cuм Ex. I can heartily agree and "impound" Bergolio. 

    What troubles me about Sedevacantism is it's saying "the pope is not the pope," etc. Or only the pope materially. That brings a host of problems for me. 

    Fr. Chazal seems to avoid those problems with his practical judgment: Bergolio's a heretic, he's forfeited his authority; ignore him.

    As I said in the other thread: I've missplaced Fr. Chazal's book. 

    I don't believe he denies that the Conciliar Church, the Church from Paul VI on, is still the Catholic Church, which to me is just an acknowledgement of the past few conclaves and the reality of the last 60 or so years. 

     How does he deal with the indefectibility issue?

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #140 on: December 07, 2022, 06:49:42 PM »
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  •  How does he deal with the indefectibility issue?

    He has to sidestep it, otherwise it leads necessarily to the 's' word - aaaaagh.  

    It's odd that he called his book 'Contra Cekadam' because nowhere does he actually state what Fr. Cekada's position is, and what is therefore being refuted.  Indefectibility is a key element of Fr. Cekada's argument.  Fr. Chazal agrees (p. 90) that they're heretics.  He just disagrees that they lose the office automatically because the Church hasn't pronounced on it yet.

    Funnily enough, the Catholic Church has pronounced on it - they're all canonized.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #141 on: December 08, 2022, 12:33:38 PM »
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  • Fr Chazal's position could hold water, but then it's just an R&R thing anyway. I'd say yes to it, but to say the pope is pope, but not really pope, is not Catholic teaching.  Who cares anyway? We've always been subject to heretical authorities. The people can request removal of a heretic bishop, perhaps even the pope, but then, the pope is specifically not subject to deposition, especially when a huge majority accept him as pope. The one thing I know is that no group or person has a satisfactorily complete handle on any of this.  I tend to think the pope is the pope and I think he will be punished for all he's done, to include being declared an anti pope for his heresy.  Just not by the laity. We don't have to accept sin as Bergoglio permits or promotes, but must resist his attempts to dismantle the faith where and when we can, since he's still the pope (imho). We have to combat his garbage with charity while avoiding divisive rhetoric and dogmatic propositions about his state within the church because it isn't going to make him go away.  The best way to combat a guy like him is through prayer and sacrifice unless your position demands more.  The one thing I can't stand is when people demand you believe what they believe or they try to excommunicate you.   

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #142 on: May 12, 2023, 01:19:09 AM »
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  • I suggest everyone get behind Father Noidea’s theory of Derelectionism.  It is by far the most peaceful irresolution to this crisis.  All we are required to do is live our own best Catholic lives. Leave the seat vacant or an apostate the Pope for our children to deal with. However one is comfortable framing the mysterious crisis, it will work for every stripe of Traditionalist and foster unity.  If the Greatest Generation ignored Assisi and Wojtyla, certainly we can feel justified ignoring Jorge the apostate.  If a problem is too complex it’s best to leave it for the next generation. Father was inspired by the Art of Manliness handbook, specifically the chapter on Home Invasion where it outlines how to run to your prie-dieu and pray to Our Lord that he remove the armed intruders or just end the world.
    Boomer tier take, ignoring things doesn't make them go away, they will continue to get worse. The bolded section really highlights the selfishness. It's because the previous generations didn't deal with their problems that we are now left with the mess..
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    Pope St. Leo the Great (400-461)
    "He that sees another in error, and endeavors not to correct it, testifies himself to be in error."
    Quote
    Pope St. Felix III (†492)
    "Not to oppose error, is to approve it, and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them."
    Quote
    Pope St. Pius V (1504-1572)
    "All the evils of the world are due to lukewarm Catholics."
    Quote
    Pope Innocent III
    "Not to oppose erroneous Doctrine is to approve of it, and not to defend at all true Doctrine is to suppress it."



    Offline Emile

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #143 on: May 12, 2023, 08:19:57 AM »
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  • Boomer tier take, ignoring things doesn't make them go away, they will continue to get worse. The bolded section really highlights the selfishness. It's because the previous generations didn't deal with their problems that we are now left with the mess..
    :confused:

    satire

    săt′īr″
    noun
    • 1. A literary work in which human foolishness or vice is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.
    • 2. The branch of literature constituting such works.
    • 3. Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose human foolishness or vice.

    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #144 on: May 12, 2023, 11:42:41 AM »
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  • Yeah, Anthony, Melanie's post was satirical. Top-tier, at that ;)

    Try reading it again. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline clarkaim

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #145 on: May 12, 2023, 01:09:17 PM »
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  • I suggest everyone get behind Father Noidea’s theory of Derelectionism.  It is by far the most peaceful irresolution to this crisis.  All we are required to do is live our own best Catholic lives. Leave the seat vacant or an apostate the Pope for our children to deal with. However one is comfortable framing the mysterious crisis, it will work for every stripe of Traditionalist and foster unity.  If the Greatest Generation ignored Assisi and Wojtyla, certainly we can feel justified ignoring Jorge the apostate.  If a problem is too complex it’s best to leave it for the next generation. Father was inspired by the Art of Manliness handbook, specifically the chapter on Home Invasion where it outlines how to run to your prie-dieu and pray to Our Lord that he remove the armed intruders or just end the world. 
    Like the national debt?


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #146 on: May 12, 2023, 07:44:33 PM »
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  • He has to sidestep it, otherwise it leads necessarily to the 's' word - aaaaagh. 

    It's odd that he called his book 'Contra Cekadam' because nowhere does he actually state what Fr. Cekada's position is, and what is therefore being refuted.  Indefectibility is a key element of Fr. Cekada's argument.  Fr. Chazal agrees (p. 90) that they're heretics.  He just disagrees that they lose the office automatically because the Church hasn't pronounced on it yet.

    Funnily enough, the Catholic Church has pronounced on it - they're all canonized.

    Missed this originally. It wonderfully crystallizes the issue.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #147 on: May 13, 2023, 05:42:05 AM »
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  • :confused:

    satire

    săt′īr″
    noun
    • 1. A literary work in which human foolishness or vice is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.
    • 2. The branch of literature constituting such works.
    • 3. Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose human foolishness or vice.
    Sorry I did not realise.

    Quote
    Quote from: Mithrandylan 13/05/2023, 00:42:41
    Yeah, Anthony, Melanie's post was satirical. Top-tier, at that ;)
    Try reading it again.
    Yeah the last few lines I should have paid more attention to. The rest of it was a perfect example of the 'boomer mindset'.... 


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #148 on: May 17, 2023, 04:57:21 AM »
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  • Another interesting implication of the Canon Law is that those with illicit and even invalid jurisdiction on account of excommunication are explicitly supplied jurisdiction via the code if the faithful approach them for the Sacraments.
    Which canon is this? Seems like a strong argument against home aloners.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #149 on: May 17, 2023, 08:11:32 AM »
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  • Quote
    Another interesting implication of the Canon Law is that those with illicit and even invalid jurisdiction on account of excommunication are explicitly supplied jurisdiction via the code if the faithful approach them for the Sacraments.
    Right, this is another argument in favor of "supplied jurisdiction".  Home-aloners have no excuse.  GET TO MASS!  SAVE YOUR SOUL!  You need the sacraments.