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Author Topic: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  (Read 27732 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2022, 05:07:20 PM »
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  • No.  I believe that a Traditional Catholic who believes that a legitimate pope who is in possession of his authority and execising it freely can corrupt the Church's Magisterium, the Public Worship of the Church, and the cult of the saints to the degree that we see at Vatican II, that is in fact heresy and guts the very foundations of Catholicism.  It's more akin to Old Catholicism than to Catholicism.

    It's not my problem that you don't understand basic distinctions.  I am not a dogmatic sedevacantist.  My personal opinion is that the See was not in fact vacant from 1958-1989, but was occupied by Cardinal Siri as Pope Gregory XVII ... and I'm not sure after that.  It's possible that Ratzinger was legitimately elected, but couldn't fully realize the protection of the Holy Spirit because he wasn't a bishop (due to invalid episcopal consecration), and therefore had no teaching authority.  Bergoglio labors under the same problem, but there's also a chance that his election was rendered null and void by the conspiracy to get him elected.  If you want to say that Paul VI was blackmailed but a legitimate pope, go for it, or even that he was locked away in a dungeon while his imposter double did all the damage, more power to you.

    Father Chazal does not "identify as" a sedevacantist (and he's not), and I consider his opinion to be very solid (and not even remotely heretical).

    But I urge you to abandon the heresy of attributing the destruction of the Church to legitimate papal authority that has been freely exercised (vs. under durress, such as blackmail).  Vatican I clearly condemned that supposition as heretical, that remaining faithful to the True Faith might justify and even require separation from communion with and submission to the Papal Magisterium.  Please wake up to how pernicious and heretical that supposition is.  This is an act of charity on my part to try snapping people out of these heretical notions lest they lose their faith entirely.

    Can't sweet-talk your way out of the fact that you condemn other traditional Catholics here. Fr. Chazal never does that. NEVER. He is a Catholic and a gentleman.

    You have been getting away with lying and manipulating others here for a long time, with the blessing of the owner of the forum. It isn't right; it's immoral. I can understand why Johnson doesn't post here anymore. I'm going to try to not post anymore. Waste of time, when you, Ladislaus, are allowed to deceive others. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Online Yeti

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #121 on: September 26, 2022, 05:09:15 PM »
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  • That's right. Theologians before vatican 2 wrote that even if the pope or the pope and bishops teach something in a non solemn manner, it is infallibly safe to follow.
    In fifth-century Athens, a Greek philosopher named Diogenes the Cynic used to walk around the Acropolis in the middle of the day with a lantern, appearing to look for something. People asked him what he was doing, and he said he was looking for an honest man.

    I don't know if he ever found what he was looking for, but if he did, I think he felt very much the same as I did when I read your post above.

    Kudos, my friend, I'm glad I've finally found someone else around here who knows that. :cowboy: A one-eyed man is king in the land of the blind. Here's your monocle!


    Online Yeti

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #122 on: September 26, 2022, 05:16:46 PM »
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  • you condemn other traditional Catholics here. Fr. Chazal never does that. NEVER. He is a Catholic and a gentleman.


    I heard that he refuses the sacraments to sedevacantists. If this is not true, I would like to know so I will have the correct facts.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #123 on: September 26, 2022, 05:28:27 PM »
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  • Can't sweet-talk your way out of the fact that you condemn other traditional Catholics here. Fr. Chazal never does that. NEVER. He is a Catholic and a gentleman.

    You have been getting away with lying and manipulating others here for a long time, with the blessing of the owner of the forum. It isn't right; it's immoral. I can understand why Johnson doesn't post here anymore. I'm going to try to not post anymore. Waste of time, when you, Ladislaus, are allowed to deceive others.
    Meg,

    Haven't you been guilty of condemning sedevacantists around here?  Perhaps you've softened your rhetoric in recent times, but I'm fairly certain that you were [are?] a dogmatic R&R [along with Sean Johnson]. 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #124 on: September 26, 2022, 06:14:42 PM »
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  • In fifth-century Athens, a Greek philosopher named Diogenes the Cynic used to walk around the Acropolis in the middle of the day with a lantern, appearing to look for something. People asked him what he was doing, and he said he was looking for an honest man.

    I don't know if he ever found what he was looking for, but if he did, I think he felt very much the same as I did when I read your post above.

    Kudos, my friend, I'm glad I've finally found someone else around here who knows that. :cowboy: A one-eyed man is king in the land of the blind. Here's your monocle!


    What! I’ve said the same for years and years. Maybe you have me on ignore. 😁
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline dxcat40

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #125 on: September 26, 2022, 07:32:32 PM »
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  • I heard that he refuses the sacraments to sedevacantists. If this is not true, I would like to know so I will have the correct facts.
    I have been to one of his Masses and there is not a sedevacantist check. Perhaps he would react differently to infamous individuals he recognized, but I don't know.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #126 on: September 26, 2022, 07:41:42 PM »
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  • I have been to one of his Masses and there is not a sedevacantist check. Perhaps he would react differently to infamous individuals he recognized, but I don't know.

    Well, no priest I've ever known checks people at the door for their theological views, not even the most dogmatic SVs.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #127 on: September 26, 2022, 09:37:21 PM »
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  • Question? Is there a difference between Anti- Pope and vacant seat people?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #128 on: September 27, 2022, 04:36:06 AM »
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  • That's right. Theologians before vatican 2 wrote that even if the pope or the pope and bishops teach something in a non solemn manner, it is infallibly safe to follow.
    Pre-V2 yes, pre-V1, not so much if at all. This is a new and official V2 doctrine though, see Lumen Gentium 25.2.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #129 on: September 27, 2022, 07:39:55 AM »
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  • Pre-V2 yes, pre-V1, not so much if at all. This is a new and official V2 doctrine though, see Lumen Gentium 25.2.

    More evidence of Old Catholicism in this statement here, along with your repeated categorical rejection of all 19th and 20th century Catholic theologians.

    I invite you to read Vatican I's Pastor Aeternus ... which you ignore.  You migth as well get on board with John Pontrello and those others.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #130 on: September 27, 2022, 07:41:13 AM »
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  • Question? Is there a difference between Anti- Pope and vacant seat people?

    I'm not sure what you mean.  Those who believe that the See is fully vacant would hold that the V2 papal claimants are in fact Antipopes.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #131 on: September 27, 2022, 08:05:08 AM »
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  • More evidence of Old Catholicism in this statement here, along with your repeated categorical rejection of all 19th and 20th century Catholic theologians.

    I invite you to read Vatican I's Pastor Aeternus ... which you ignore.  You migth as well get on board with John Pontrello and those others.
    More evidence of what, my disagreement with Lad theology?

    Go ahead, read Vatican I's Pastor Aeternus, then post what you find and stop blowing hot air that's riddled with deceit to suit your narrative. You won't post anything that even remotely teaches the NO doctrine of all the bishops in unison with the pope are infallible - because that's a new doctrine found only in LG. You keep posting the same old lie, now put up or shut up.

    Oh, and for the record, you already knew that I only reject only certain teachings of certain theologians of the last few centuries, not all of them.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #132 on: September 27, 2022, 08:19:38 AM »
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  • More evidence of what, my disagreement with Lad theology?

    Go ahead, read Vatican I's Pastor Aeternus, then post what you find and stop blowing hot air that's riddled with deceit to suit your narrative. You won't post anything that even remotely teaches the NO doctrine of all the bishops in unison with the pope are infallible - because that's a new doctrine found only in LG. You keep posting the same old lie, now put up or shut up.

    Oh, and for the record, you already knew that I only reject only certain teachings of certain theologians of the last few centuries, not all of them.

    That would be refreshing: an actual quoting, and discussion, of the specific language in Pastor Aeternus.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #133 on: September 27, 2022, 08:27:17 AM »
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  • More evidence of Old Catholicism in this statement here, along with your repeated categorical rejection of all 19th and 20th century Catholic theologians.

    I invite you to read Vatican I's Pastor Aeternus ... which you ignore.  You migth as well get on board with John Pontrello and those others.


    The main problem here is the inconsistencies of the arguments. If "repeated categorical rejection of all 19th and 20th century Catholic theologians" were a mark of "Old Catholicism," those who reject the teaching of all those theologians and reject even the possibility of of justification and salvation via baptism of desire - Lad? -  would be "Old Catholics."

    You can't use a ruler to measure a foot and then throw it away as a reliable measurement for the hand.

    Let's try to find a reliable standard and apply it consistently. Otherwise we're simply watching wheels spinning in sand, going nowhere.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R -- why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?
    « Reply #134 on: September 27, 2022, 08:52:06 AM »
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  • I'm not sure what you mean.  Those who believe that the See is fully vacant would hold that the V2 papal claimants are in fact Antipopes.
    Well, technically not "anti-popes", but false popes.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)