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Author Topic: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.  (Read 9238 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
« Reply #135 on: January 02, 2024, 02:39:01 PM »
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  • Quote
    Does anyone think that, say 50 or more years from now, "The Nine" will be remembered as a significant event in Catholic History among those who are not even Traditional?
    Non-Trads have no idea about +ABL or the Nine now.  Why would 50 years in the future be worse?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #136 on: January 02, 2024, 02:47:02 PM »
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  • Based on this site, it's no exaggeration.  This last week, i've seen the use of the word 'heretic' more than the last 6 months.


    I would agree that the name calling has been more prevalent lately; however, it's not always a sede doing it and I don't think it's multiple sedes when it is a sede doing it. I'd have to go back to see, but my sense is that it's more likely that one or two are doing all of the name calling.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #137 on: January 02, 2024, 08:38:39 PM »
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  • I did see your other apology re "heretics" - thank you. So, no need to repeat yourself.

    I think if you read some of my recent posts, you'll have a better grasp of my "argument".  I honestly don't want to get into a back and forth on it though.  I've got much more pressing things to deal with right now which has sapped much of my energy.
    Sure, no prob, I know the feeling...

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #138 on: January 02, 2024, 08:42:26 PM »
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  • Either the Conciliar Church's theology, worship, etc. is reconcilable with Tradition (at least applying some hermeneutic of continuity) or else it could not have been created by legitimate papal authority.
    It was created by illegitimate exercise of that papal authority which should be refused without necessarily requiring you to deny the authority of the one so abusing it. That is the crucial distinction which Archbishop Lefebvre did make.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #139 on: January 02, 2024, 10:29:12 PM »
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  • Cardinal Franzelin refutes the SSPX’s and, by extension, your inaccurate interpretation of Saint Vincent regarding space *and* time:

    https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/franzelin-vincentian-canon.pdf
    You can read yourself below, QV, that St Vincent certainly talks about space (universality) and time (antiquity) and uses them as the rule for adhering to what is Catholic. Cardinal Franzelin, in discussing the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium, separates the two terms, yet he requires the use of antiquity, nonetheless, if in 'universality' there is found controversy, just as St Vincent obviously does here. Thus in the study by Dom Nau, both of these marks are included in the concept of 'universal'. There is not too much in the way of practical difference, and as you see from my post on the other thread, Cardinal Franzelin's doctrine is absolutely in line with Archbishop Lefebvre's.

    Excerpt From St Vincent of Lerins:

    “Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic,’ as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality, antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself, we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, Bishops and Doctors alike.

    “What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb.

    “But what if some novel contagions try to infect the whole Church, and not merely a tiny part of it? Then he will take care to cleave to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any deceit of novelty.

    “What if in antiquity itself two or three men, or it may be a city, or even a whole province be detected in error? Then he will take the greatest care to prefer the decrees of the ancient General Councils, if there are such, to the irresponsible ignorance of a few men.

    “But what if some error arises regarding which nothing of this sort is to be found? Then he must do his best to compare the opinions of the Fathers and inquire their meaning, provided always that, though they belonged to diverse times and places, they yet continued in the faith and communion of the one Catholic Church; and let them be teachers approved and outstanding. And whatever he shall find to have been held, approved and taught, not by one or two only but by all equally and with one consent, openly, frequently, and persistently, let him take this as to be held by him without the slightest hesitation.”

    (The Vincentian Canon, in Commonitorium, chap IV, 434, ed. Moxon, Cambridge Patristic Texts




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #140 on: January 03, 2024, 06:13:38 AM »
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  • You can read yourself below, QV, that St Vincent certainly talks about space (universality) and time (antiquity) and uses them as the rule for adhering to what is Catholic. Cardinal Franzelin, in discussing the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium, separates the two terms, yet he requires the use of antiquity, nonetheless, if in 'universality' there is found controversy, just as St Vincent obviously does here. Thus in the study by Dom Nau, both of these marks are included in the concept of 'universal'. There is not too much in the way of practical difference, and as you see from my post on the other thread, Cardinal Franzelin's doctrine is absolutely in line with Archbishop Lefebvre's.

    Excerpt From St Vincent of Lerins:

    “Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic,’ as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality, antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself, we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, Bishops and Doctors alike.

    “What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb.

    “But what if some novel contagions try to infect the whole Church, and not merely a tiny part of it? Then he will take care to cleave to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any deceit of novelty.

    “What if in antiquity itself two or three men, or it may be a city, or even a whole province be detected in error? Then he will take the greatest care to prefer the decrees of the ancient General Councils, if there are such, to the irresponsible ignorance of a few men.

    “But what if some error arises regarding which nothing of this sort is to be found? Then he must do his best to compare the opinions of the Fathers and inquire their meaning, provided always that, though they belonged to diverse times and places, they yet continued in the faith and communion of the one Catholic Church; and let them be teachers approved and outstanding. And whatever he shall find to have been held, approved and taught, not by one or two only but by all equally and with one consent, openly, frequently, and persistently, let him take this as to be held by him without the slightest hesitation.”

    (The Vincentian Canon, in Commonitorium, chap IV, 434, ed. Moxon, Cambridge Patristic Texts
    I like the way Fr. Wathen sums up the Vincentian Canon in one of his sermons....

    "...One of the saints, [St. Vincent of Lerins (died 445)] whose name I cannot remember, for which I apologize, made a statement concerning heresy and orthodoxy which I find both wonderfully intriguing as well as important.

    He says that the true faith is that which has been held by all people, that is, all the faithful people in the Church, all the time.

     Which is to say that any idea that has not been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic. Which is to say that at any given time an idea can be widely held even by the vast majority of the people, as is liberalism among Catholics today.

    Also an heretical idea can be shown to have been held by a small group of people within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history. But the true doctrine of the Church is that which has been held always by everyone..." 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #141 on: January 03, 2024, 07:23:08 AM »
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  • It was created by illegitimate exercise of that papal authority which should be refused without necessarily requiring you to deny the authority of the one so abusing it. That is the crucial distinction which Archbishop Lefebvre did make.

    No, it's a distinction those who misappropriate Archbishop Lefebvre pretend that he made.

    Archbishop Lefebvre stated that the papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from perpetrating the degree of destruction we've seen since Vatican II.  He agrees with the argument we're making here.  Are you ready to refute/reject his statements?  As I pointed out, you are using Archbishop Lefebvre as a sock puppet, pretending that he held your opinion on this matter, the indefectibility of the Church and the Holy Spirit's protection over the Papacy, and also claim to speak for the Resistance in claiming "the Resistance holds that sedevacantism is a danger to souls".

    I should think +Williamson, Avrille, and Fr. Chazal are more representative of "the Resistance".

    +Williamson and Avrille have both said it's possible Jorge's not the pope and that the SV position is "understandable".  Fr. Chazal called +Vigano effectively a Resistance bishop, despite the latter's rejection of Bergoglio's claim to be pope.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #142 on: January 03, 2024, 07:26:58 AM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre agrees with us here:
    Quote
    ultimately I agree with you; it's not possible that the Pope, who is protected by the Holy Ghost, could do things like this.  There we agree; it's not possible, it doesn't fit, this destruction of the Church ...

    He affirms the very point we're arguing here and that you reject.

    So please reject/refute this statement from Archbishop Lefebvre.


    Offline Matthew

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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #144 on: January 03, 2024, 06:29:34 PM »
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  • I should think +Williamson, Avrille, and Fr. Chazal are more representative of "the Resistance".

    +Williamson and Avrille have both said it's possible Jorge's not the pope and that the SV position is "understandable". 
    Now there I agree with you 100% Ladislaus. Don't listen to me, listen to these faithful shepherds. Even Archbishop Lefebvre said it was possible and that the position was understandable. Understandable doesn't mean right, nor good, and none of these Resistance figures you mention held that.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #145 on: January 03, 2024, 06:33:27 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre agrees with us here:
    He affirms the very point we're arguing here and that you reject.

    So please reject/refute this statement from Archbishop Lefebvre.
    I don't have the context of these words. But you know as well as I do how dishonest it is to present this as the Archbishop's ultimate conclusion, which is known to all and which I have demonstrated with his words years after this quote, but which you don't wish to consider.