Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Matthew on May 07, 2018, 09:51:26 AM
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Did you know that Melanie, the female seer of La Salette, is not a saint?
And that Melanie's prophecy turned out to be false -- it never came true? Worse, IT CAN'T COME TRUE. It was proven false!
And that Maximin, the male seer, was caught in many lies (or false prophecies?)
You learn something every day! Kudos to CathInfo, eh?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/la-salette-sorting-fact-from-fiction
For example, here is the main passage about the Antichrist: "In the year 1865 the abomination shall be seen in Holy Places in Convents, and then the demon shall make himself as the king of hearts. It will be about that time that Antichrist shall be born. At his birth he shall vomit blasphemies. He shall have teeth; in a word, he shall be like an incarnate demon; he shall utter frightful screams; he shall work prodigies; and he shall feed on impure things. He shall have brothers who, though not incarnate demons like him, shall nevertheless be children of iniquity. At the age of twelve years they shall have become remarkable for valiant victories, which they shall achieve; very soon each of them will be at the head of armies. Paris shall be burned, and Marseilles shall be submerged; many great cities shall be shattered and swallowed up by earthquakes. The populace will believe that everything is lost, will see nothing but murder, and will hear only the clang of arms and sacrilegious blasphemies."
Well, now that we’re in the year 2000, either there is a 135-year-old guy out there somewhere—with brothers who won great battles as the heads of armies in the 1880s in a war that everyone seems to have forgotten about—or else what Melanie published as her "secret" from Our Lady of La Salette contains elements that are false.
Radical traditionalists are being duplicitous when, in an attempt to frighten people, they quote the line about Rome and the Antichrist without supplying the context that reveals that Melanie’s published version of the "secret" established for itself a timeframe that has already passed.
In recent years radical traditionalists have been attacking the Church using a line allegedly uttered by Our Lady of La Salette: "Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."
My initial inclination is to respond by saying, "Big deal. Tell me something I don’t already know."
Actually, that’s a little strong. I don’t know that those things will happen, but I strongly suspect that they will. The New Testament predicts that before the Second Coming there will be a great falling away from the faith (2 Thess. 2:3a), and I imagine that this will apply to the populace of Rome as much as people in other places.
Scripture also predicts the coming of an individual known as the Antichrist who will deny that Jesus has come in the flesh (2 John 7). This individual is often identified with the "man of sin" whom Paul mentions (2 Thess. 2:3b; see this issue’s cover story for more information), who will demand worship and persecute the Church, as did some of the early Roman emperors. As for where this persecuting, emperor-like individual will be based, Rome is a more likely candidate than any other city I can name.
I even expect that the worldview of the Church’s persecutors will be the same as its first ones: a form of paganism.
So the claim that "Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of Antichrist" doesn’t particularly impress me. It just means that—in religious terms—the city of Rome in the last century will be a lot like it was in the first. The Antichrist will be the head of state, persecuting the Church, and the pope will be leading the Christian underground, just like Peter in first-century Rome.
What is absurd is the radical traditionalist claim that the alleged prophecy of Our Lady of La Salette may be applied to Rome today. That’s nonsense. Regardless of how tepid the faith of Italians may be or how many erroneous ideas they have, they still overwhelmingly identify themselves as Christian. As long as that’s the case, Italy has not apostatized.
Radical traditionalists often seem to have a defective understanding of what counts as apostasy. It is much more than tepid or weak faith. It is more than just accepting ideas contrary to the Catholic faith (that’s what heresy is). Apostasy constitutes a full repudiation of the faith so that one no longer considers oneself a Christian.
That’s what Scripture has in mind when it talks about there being a great apostasy. It doesn’t envision Christians by the truckload abandoning orthodoxy for a heresy but still calling themselves Christian. It envisions Christians by the truckload leaving Christianity altogether, which in a first-century context would mean reverting to either paganism of Judaism.
We will be able to say that the apostasy has occurred when Christians are being drug again through the streets of Rome to execution in the Coliseum. Compared to what will happen then, charges of a present apostasy in Europe are not only laughable, but insulting to the future, final wave of martyrs.
In a way, radical traditionalists who charge the Church has apostatized are committing the Protestant error: To justify their separation from the Church, Protestant leaders charged it with having "apostatized" and become a heretical Church. We know because of Christ’s promise that this cannot happen (Matt. 16:18), but the claim was made nonetheless. Radical traditionalists who commit the same error do so for the same reason: to advance their own cause and—in some cases—their own schism from the Church.
Another strategy early Protestants used to justify their separation from the Church was to accuse it of being run by the Antichrist, whom they identified as the pope. This too is out of whack with Scripture, which identifies the Antichrist as someone who claims that Jesus Christ has not come in the flesh (2 John 7). That’s hard to do if you are the pope, since your job rests on your being the vicar (representative) of Jesus Christ until he returns to the earth. Nevertheless, early Protestants made the claim, as some do today.
Radical traditionalists at times seem to be doing the same thing. "Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of Antichrist" is such a tempting, juicy quote that they really want to apply it to today. But in that case, who could the Antichrist be?
Well, unless Romano Prodi, the current president of the Italian Republic, plans to pass some rather sweeping anti-Christian laws, he’s out of the running. With the absence of an Italian political leader for the role of Antichrist, radical traditionalists seem to be suggesting that the pope (either the current one or one soon to come) fills that role.
Again, this is simply absurd. We’ve already seen that, on the grounds of justifying his job alone, the pope is the last person on earth to meet the biblical requirements for the Antichrist. He also isn’t the kind of political leader the Antichrist will be.
But there is another reason why you can’t apply the La Salette prophecy to today: The prophecy itself precludes it. You see, the prophecy doesn’t consist of just one sentence. It has a lot of other things to say, including things about the Antichrist. Among these is the fact that he is not a pope but a military or political figure that the "secret" contrasts with the pope.
First, a little background. The apparition of Our Lady of La Salette occurred in 1846. The visionaries were two children in France named Maximin Giraud and Melanie Calvat. The local bishop approved the apparition in 1851, and that same year the two children were persuaded to write down information the Virgin Mary had given them. The question of what these "secrets" contained was on many people’s minds, and the children were relentlessly pestered to reveal the information. It was not until 1851, when they were asked to write down the secrets so that they could be given to the pope, that they complied.
Afterwards, Maximin never revealed his secret. He is reported to have claimed that Mary told him that he would become a millionaire, that the Antichrist would slay him, and that the next pope would be French. None of those things happened, and scholars generally conclude that they were stories Maximin made up in an attempt to stop people from pestering him about the secret. When texts alleging to be Maximin’s secret began to appear in the press (some of which are demonstrably false), the frustrated seer refused to either confirm or deny that they were his, saying it was the pope’s responsibility to decide whether the secret should be revealed.
Melanie’s story is different. Over the years she apparently did begin revealing pieces of her secret to others, and in 1879 she published the whole thing.
The trouble is, what she wrote in 1851 consisted of only three, hand-written pages. The booklet she produced in 1879 was much longer than this, and undoubtedly contains ideas that were not part of the secret sent to the pope. So, while Melanie’s 1879 publication may have been based on her original secret, it undoubtedly contains elements not in the original, and we cannot tell which elements are which. That raises a concern about the "Rome will lose the faith" line. It may not have been in the secret sent to the pope.
There is another problem: Some of the prophecies contained in Melanie’s secret are demonstrably false. They’re too specific, they’re tied to the nineteenth century, and they didn’t happen.
For example, here is the main passage about the Antichrist: "In the year 1865 the abomination shall be seen in Holy Places in Convents, and then the demon shall make himself as the king of hearts. It will be about that time that Antichrist shall be born. At his birth he shall vomit blasphemies. He shall have teeth; in a word, he shall be like an incarnate demon; he shall utter frightful screams; he shall work prodigies; and he shall feed on impure things. He shall have brothers who, though not incarnate demons like him, shall nevertheless be children of iniquity. At the age of twelve years they shall have become remarkable for valiant victories, which they shall achieve; very soon each of them will be at the head of armies. Paris shall be burned, and Marseilles shall be submerged; many great cities shall be shattered and swallowed up by earthquakes. The populace will believe that everything is lost, will see nothing but murder, and will hear only the clang of arms and sacrilegious blasphemies."
Well, now that we’re in the year 2000, either there is a 135-year-old guy out there somewhere—with brothers who won great battles as the heads of armies in the 1880s in a war that everyone seems to have forgotten about—or else what Melanie published as her "secret" from Our Lady of La Salette contains elements that are false.
Radical traditionalists are being duplicitous when, in an attempt to frighten people, they quote the line about Rome and the Antichrist without supplying the context that reveals that Melanie’s published version of the "secret" established for itself a timeframe that has already passed.
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He is obviously not a Trad, but he makes some good points.
I'm sure some Sedes love that quote -- because they are casting off the entire structure: pope, cardinals, hierarchy, bishops, priests, baby, bathwater, and all!
That doesn't bother them at all, since the Mother of God said Rome would become Antichrist's headquarters -- and, of course, the head of that headquarters is the Pope. So some Sedes imply by this (apocryphal?) quote that the "Pope" is not only an anti-pope, but he's the Antichrist as well!
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Again, it doesn't matter if you want to believe the source or not. Is this the prophecy or not?
For example, here is the main passage about the Antichrist: "In the year 1865 the abomination shall be seen in Holy Places in Convents, and then the demon shall make himself as the king of hearts. It will be about that time that Antichrist shall be born. At his birth he shall vomit blasphemies. He shall have teeth; in a word, he shall be like an incarnate demon; he shall utter frightful screams; he shall work prodigies; and he shall feed on impure things. He shall have brothers who, though not incarnate demons like him, shall nevertheless be children of iniquity. At the age of twelve years they shall have become remarkable for valiant victories, which they shall achieve; very soon each of them will be at the head of armies. Paris shall be burned, and Marseilles shall be submerged; many great cities shall be shattered and swallowed up by earthquakes. The populace will believe that everything is lost, will see nothing but murder, and will hear only the clang of arms and sacrilegious blasphemies."
Well, now that we’re in the year 2000, either there is a 135-year-old guy out there somewhere—with brothers who won great battles as the heads of armies in the 1880s in a war that everyone seems to have forgotten about—or else what Melanie published as her "secret" from Our Lady of La Salette contains elements that are false.
Radical traditionalists are being duplicitous when, in an attempt to frighten people, they quote the line about Rome and the Antichrist without supplying the context that reveals that Melanie’s published version of the "secret" established for itself a timeframe that has already passed.
Conciliar or not, the guy makes a good point.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/la-salette-sorting-fact-from-fiction (https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/la-salette-sorting-fact-from-fiction)
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My question for the forum is:
How many of you have taken as gospel, and/or passed on those two quotes, like the game of Telephone, taking it on faith (pun intended)? And how many of you looked into the authenticity of those quotes?
There has to be a Trad or two who speaks French! And there's Google Translate for crying out loud.
Remember the deal with private revelations. You can take them or leave them, preferably leave them. At the very least, none of them is necessary for salvation, not even Fatima. That is Catholic dogma. (and I have no problem with Fatima or any approved Marian apparition, BTW)
I didn't know that the boy in La Salette gave out many false prophecies "to keep people off his back". But at least one website says that he did. Is this a foul lie, or is it true?
And then the next question -- was Melanie also as "creative" as Maximin was alleged to have been?
And I would like to know why these seers aren't even being considered for Canonization, not even recently, as is the case with the Fatima seers. My undestanding is that the Fatima prophecy wasn't kind to the Conciliar Church either!
Afterwards, Maximin never revealed his secret. He is reported to have claimed that Mary told him that he would become a millionaire, that the Antichrist would slay him, and that the next pope would be French. None of those things happened, and scholars generally conclude that they were stories Maximin made up in an attempt to stop people from pestering him about the secret. When texts alleging to be Maximin’s secret began to appear in the press (some of which are demonstrably false), the frustrated seer refused to either confirm or deny that they were his, saying it was the pope’s responsibility to decide whether the secret should be revealed.
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If there's one thing I've learned running a Trad forum for 12 years:
People will accept many facts uncritically if it tends to support their existing opinions or position.
If someone said something scandalous about Pope Francis, I'm automatically inclined to believe it because "nothing would surprise me" about him, and it would fit my current opinion/worldview about him. I probably wouldn't even bother to verify it.
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The term “radical traditionalist” was coined by Abraham Foxman and the ADL for the purposes of attacking faithful Catholics and labeling them with a negative connotation.
I don't doubt it.
But can we please ignore such side issues and distractions? That wasn't the point of this thread. We already addressed the issue that this source is completely Conciliar. Moving on...
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Again, my question for the forum:
Can we verify that Our Lady actually said those two quotes, or likely said them? Or are we all just going to accept those words as gospel, just because it offers evidence to support our existing worldview that "Rome = bad"
And if she did say these things, what was the FULL CONTEXT in which these lines were uttered? Context matters.
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Weren't those two little quotes from Melanie though. I might be wrong.
Yes, they were from Melanie.
But her later paper containing the "secret" was longer than her first version. So which things were added, and which things were in the original?
And how many CI members knew that Melanie is STILL neither venerable, nor blessed, let alone a saint.
This is big.
If a person believed that Rome is "Antichrist Headquarters", would he be:
A) more likely to be sedevacantist
B) less likely to be sedevacantist
C) no change
Any Catholic with a brain would have to choose "A".
I'm sure there are sedevacantists who are AT LEAST PARTLY basing their extreme reaction on this small piece of intel -- from a peasant girl in 19th century France, who isn't even a Blessed or Saint!
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Again, here is the text of the prophecy I found online today. Is it a bad translation or something?
In the year 1865 the abomination shall be seen in Holy Places in Convents, and then the demon shall make himself as the king of hearts. It will be about that time that Antichrist shall be born. At his birth he shall vomit blasphemies. He shall have teeth; in a word, he shall be like an incarnate demon; he shall utter frightful screams; he shall work prodigies; and he shall feed on impure things. He shall have brothers who, though not incarnate demons like him, shall nevertheless be children of iniquity. At the age of twelve years they shall have become remarkable for valiant victories, which they shall achieve; very soon each of them will be at the head of armies. Paris shall be burned, and Marseilles shall be submerged; many great cities shall be shattered and swallowed up by earthquakes. The populace will believe that everything is lost, will see nothing but murder, and will hear only the clang of arms and sacrilegious blasphemies."
So now that we’re in the year 2018, either there is a 153-year-old guy out there somewhere—with brothers who won great battles as the heads of armies in the 1880s in a war that everyone seems to have forgotten about—or else what Melanie published as her "secret" from Our Lady of La Salette contains elements that are false.
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I said the prophecy could be debatable, inaccurate, or even bogus.
Can I ask a sincere and honest question? How can a valid prophecy from God contain some error or parts that were proven false, or couldn't ever come true?
According to Scholastic philosophy (St. Thomas Aquinas):
Bonum es ex integra causa
Malum ex quocuмque defectu.
"Whatever is good, is good in all of its parts."
"It is evil if it is deficient in any way".
How can you have a "kind of" prophecy? Isn't that like being "kind of pregnant"?
If it's from God, it's going to have 0 error.
If it's from man, it will have error(s).
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Even if God was behind the original apparition, and even delivered certain prophecies to the seers, if the prophecies, as we have them written down today, are riddled with error due to an unreliable seer, what good is the prophecy?
I would just like some verification -- what was the TRUE, ORIGINAL text of the La Salette prophecy, and what does it say?
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Father Hesse speaks on his conversations
with Father Malachi Martin and on the Message of LaSalette
http://tradcatknight.blogspot.com/2014/11/father-hesse-on-message-of-lasalette.html (http://tradcatknight.blogspot.com/2014/11/father-hesse-on-message-of-lasalette.html)
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http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/rome-will-loose-faith-la-salette.html (http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/rome-will-loose-faith-la-salette.html)
"Rome will loose the faith" La Salette - observations by Malachi Martin1
1 September 1996
Dear Friends and Benefactors,
This month, September of 1996, September 19th to be precise, is the 150th anniversary of the great Apparition of the Mother of God to two peasant children at La Salette in the mountains of eastern France in 1846. The so-called Secret of La Salette, made public by Mélanie Calvat in 1858, is the greatest single portrait of modern times given to us from Heaven for now and down to the end of the world. That is to say its importance. Here is the apocalyptic back-drop against which each of us today has to play out the salvation or damnation of his soul. By all means read or re-read the Secret on the flyer enclosed.
Of course there are souls that will smile at the mere mention of the Mother of God appearing in modern times. Surely such superstition is disappearing with the peasants it was good for, they say. But Catholics know firstly that as our religion raises us up into a unique familiarity with Heaven, teaching us to say to God "Our Father" as no other religion teaches (Gal. IV,6; Rom. VIII, 15), so it also brings down Heaven familiarly upon earth, especially our Heavenly Mother, who has appeared in all centuries to bring souls to her Son, especially in dangerous times like ours. And secondly Catholics know that despite fierce and continuing opposition, the Apparition and Secret of La Salette have been fully approved by the competent Church authorities, so that we are in no danger if we take them seriously. On the contrary, the danger consists in making light of them, or denying them.
In fact, the message of La Salette was a gigantic corrective, or up-date of Revelation, in the heart of the last century when churchmen especially were in danger of being seduced by modern "progress", or by the liberalism then really getting under way. The fierce opposition, then as now, came from the liberal churchmen preferring to be up-to-date with the world than with the God from whom that world was and is moving away. As Archbishop Lefebvre said, the Church battle in the 19th and 20th centuries is essentially the same.
That is why it is so important for readers to absorb from the Secret of La Salette the mind of Heaven for our own day. For while, for the good of our souls, much in the Secret remains mysterious, nevertheless much is becoming clear, for instance the famous statement that Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist (column 4). To give flesh and bones to this awful scenario put before us by the Mother of God, let us turn to a modern observer of the Church scene, quite independent of the Society of St. Pius X, Malachi Martin.
Now here is a man that not everybody trusts, for reasons best known to himself, as far as I can tell, and of which God alone is the infallible judge. But if one judges recent sayings and writings of his as they stand (which is how the Holy Office used to bind itself to judge), then surely they can be commended for throwing much light upon our darkling scene. For the set of audio-tapes he issued last year ("The Devastated Vineyard") and the book he published this year ("Windswept House") contain terrible accusations against modern churchmen, but there is no trace of bitterness or anger, hardly even of sadness. The spirit remains Catholic, flowing with "the milk of human kindness".
"The Devastated Vineyard" is a set of three tapes entitled "The Judas Complex", studying the infidelity of the mass of today's bishops; "St. Peter's Successor", examining the question of Pope John-Paul II; and "The Essence of Catholicism", proposing action that ordinary Catholics can take when bishops and Pope are failing to defend their faith.
As for the bishops, Malachi Martin says that with a few praiseworthy exceptions, difficult though it is to admit, a solid block of the Catholic bishops in north America (USA and Canada) no longer believe, they no longer have the Catholic Faith. Otherwise they could not behave as they do. How could they drink back "consecrated" wine like at a cocktail party and forbid people to kneel for Communion, unless they no longer believed in the Real Presence? How could they rejoice in altar-girls, female administrators and female eucharistic ministers unless they had ceased to believe in the male priesthood? How could they fail to resist abortion unless they had come to share the abortionists' view that a foetus is a blob of tissue and not a baby? And so on. The bishops' non-Catholic behaviour is simply explained by their loss of Catholic Faith.
Malachi Martin says this loss of faith goes "way back somewhere". These bishops may even never have had the faith. In any case their access to high office only confirmed their lack of faith. The "Judas complex" is Malachi Martin's name for these bishops' taking sides with the world against Jesus in order to get Jesus to be less demanding and more reasonable. There is now a tight bond between the U. S. Catholic bishops and the U. S. Government, which gives the bishops favours they want. Also the bishops do not want to upset those state officials and officers with whom they go to dinner, play golf, etc. The bishops do not want to be confronted by fellow club members being indignant at, for instance, the pro-lifers calling them baby-murderers, and so on. Also the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr has a necessary part for the bishops and Church to play as stabilizers of society, so the bishops are happy to go along with the planned replacement of Christ's priesthood by social worker "priests" who keep people happy, manage the plant and the money and in general make everybody feel good.
So these bishops are far from disappointed, they are delighted by the disappearance of the old out-of-date Church, they persecute true priests and they hate the real Mass with a hatred coming straight from the heart of Satan. When, oh when, asks Malachi Martin, are the "decent conservative Catholics" going to wake up to the fact that the Catholic Church structure is no more, having been snuffed out somewhere between 1965 and 1995?
All of which raises in Malachi Martin's second tape the question of John-Paul II. How can Christ' s own Vicar be happily presiding over such an incredible collapse? Firstly Malachi Martin insists, claiming inside knowledge of John-Paul II's election in 1978, that he really is Pope, and that Catholicism without whoever is Pope is not Catholicism. Nevertheless, John-Paul II' s ecuмenism, and disbelief in the necessity of the Catholic Church for eternal salvation, set a very real problem.
Malachi Martin begins by guessing why Christ might have chosen Cardinal Wojtyla for his Vicar. He imagines our Lord saying to himself at the Papal election in 1978, "My Church is rotten. But if I put in Cardinal Siri of Genoa as Pope, he will fight the rot so that it will in fact go on longer, whereas if I let in Cardinal Wojtyla, the rot will go faster and I can start re-building sooner". Not that the rot is a good thing, nor that Christ can will evil, but he can will to permit evil for a greater good, and in the meantime all Catholics are entitled, even obliged, to resist the rot as best they can.
Then Malachi Martin discusses at length three weaknesses of Pope John-Paul II: firstly, he is in philosophy not a thomist who goes by the inner reality of things, but a phenomenologist who goes by their outer appearances or relations. Secondly, he is from Poland and suffers from that excessive tolerance or broad-mindedness which down history has been a weakness of Poles. And thirdly he is a geo-politician who dreams and makes dream-trips around the world, while the reins of the government of the Church in Rome are seized by his enemies, now pressuring him fiercely to resign.
In brief, Catholics can expect to suffer much at the hands of such a Pope who will neither vindicate them nor protect their religion. Under him, they can expect no good to come out of Rome, only misdirection and imperfection. However, that does not prevent them from defending their own faith, in fact Malachi Martin says that a whole underground Church is being set up independently of the official bishops or Rome, and I think he is referring to a network alongside of or in addition to the Society of St. Pius X. Which is normal. Abnormally normal, but normal. There is a God, and lies remain lies.
This dark picture of Pope and bishops and Rome, which we know from our Lady of La Salette to be a feature of the end times, is corroborated, even darkened, in Malachi Martin's recent hook, "Windswept House" (published by Doubleday, 1540 Broadway, New York, NY 10036). To tell harsh truths about the state of the Church in Rome and North America today, he has chosen to write a novel, partly for audience appeal but perhaps mainly for self-protection. If for instance he dared to publish as naked fact all that precise detail of the enthroning of Satan inside the Vatican in 1963 by a double ceremony linking Rome and South Carolina, one wonders how long he might be left to live, and the same might be true for horrendous details of Satanism and the vice against nature he depicts as being rampant among the upper and lower clergy in North America. As it is, he and anybody else can say, "It's only a novel".
But the novel is built around a very real-line straggle for the heart and mind of the "Slavic Pope", between a handful of loyal Catholics on the one side, and on the other side a global conspiracy of Roman prelates and world politicians scheming to incorporate the Catholic Church structure, but not faith, into the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.
There are fascinating pages in the novel on the mentality of these prelates, deciding that if Mother Church can no longer lick the process of History, then they must join it; fascinating debates also between an older priest justifying at all costs the Slavic Pope's failure to defend the Faith, and a younger priest who cannot let the failure pass. Devotion against Doctrine. A debate going on in Malacli Martin' s mind. He has up till now sided with Devotion, whereas the SSPX sides with Doctrine, but in the conclusion of "Wind swept House" is Malachi Martin at last tilting towards Doctrine?
In the third tape of "The Devastated Vineyard", Malachi Martin's solution was still Devotion. After scanning in the first two tapes the collapse of bishops and Pope, he begins his third tape by surveying the collapse of Christian civilization. The nations no longer acknowledge Christ. In no government of the world do Catholics hold sway. The protective walls are broken down. Wild animals prowl and devour. The police, the F.B.I., the military, the State, the big Corporations, now devour the people instead of protecting them. We are lonely, unhappy, and see no light at the end of the tunnel. Wall Street can collapse, the world economy is shaky, all parts of the world are in contention. The ancient civilization is like dead, being replaced by a new way of life which is feckless, rich, dirty, glamorous and self-satisfied.
As for the Catholic Church, it has been undone by the undoing of its devotion, what St. Paul called piety, expressed in devotions. And Malachi Martin has beautiful things to say about those devout practices of Catholics which were the hall-mark of our religion, and which made Heaven and earth so familiar to one another. With their deliberate extinction according to a satanic plan, the Catholic Church and Faith have been extinguished in the people's hearts and minds. For instance, how can a person receive Communion worthily unless he has some devotion to thie Person of Our Lord? Impossible. And that is why, to destroy the Church, a "powerful and dirty alliance" of servants of Satan, inside the Church in Rome and outside, are working together, to silence for instance the Mother of God as she tries to make her voice heard at La Salette, at Fatima, at...
All of which external influences throw an extra obligation upon parents, concludes Malachi Martin, to safeguard their children' s faith. The truth is still out there, and accessible, but to find it, people must want to find it. Parents must search out true priests, the true Mass, the true sacraments. They must believe in that eternity, to prepare for which we have only this life. "This is it!"
Now Catholics who think with the Society of St. Pius X might wish Malachi Martin would draw his conclusions tighter but it takes time for people to realize that the necessary line of defense of the faith is the "extremism" of Archbishop Lefebvre. Meanwhile Malachi Martin must he reaching a range of souls that the Society cannot for the moment reach, and with many truths close to the heart of Our Lady of Salette.
Catholics, beware! The same Devil who sand-trapped so many bishops, priests and laity in mid-19th century, as Our Lady of Salette warned, sand-trapped many more in mid-20th century, along the same lines, and he is prowling about to do the same to ourselves. Bing Crosby Catholicism was deadly for the Faith of tens of millions! We must watch and pray and listen to our Lady, if we wish to save our souls.
Enclosed is a Seminary Continuous Support Fund Card which, if filled out and returned to us, will obtain for you a monthly envelope to facilitate contributions, and will bring you this monthly letter by First class mail. We are always grateful for your support. May God he with you, especially parents and children, through a new school-year.
Sincerely yours in Christ,
+ Richard N. Williamson
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https://stmarcelinitiative.com/12903/ (https://stmarcelinitiative.com/12903/)
La Salette, Applied
October 21, 2017
Number DXXXVI (536) (https://stmarcelinitiative.com/12903/)Printable PDF (https://stmarcelinitiative.com/12903/#)
We tend to hanker after yesterday,
But hunker down is what we need today.
All prophecies are mysterious, including the famous Secret of La Salette revealed to a French peasant girl in the Alps of eastern France in 1846. However, that Secret certainly follows the Venerable Holzhauser’s broad outlines of the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Ages of the Church, so that a large part of the Secret applies to our own end of the Fifth Age. Here is a substantial extract from that part of the Secret, in italics, followed by a Resistant priest’s presentation of how that end of an Age looks in our very own time. Firstly, Our Lady of La Salette:—
“There will be extraordinary wonders in every place because the true Faith has been extinguished and a false light lights up the world. ( . . . ) My Son’s Vicar will have much to suffer, because for a time the Church will be handed over to great persecutions: it will be the time of darkness; the Church will undergo a frightful crisis. With God’s holy Faith forgotten, each individual will want to direct himself and rise above his peers. Civil and ecclesiastical authority will be abolished, all order and justice will be trampled underfoot. Only murders, hatred, jealousy, lying and discord will be seen, with no love of country or family. ( . . . ) Civil governments will all have the same objective, which will be to abolish and make every religious principle disappear, to make way for materialism, atheism, spiritism and vices of all kinds . . .”
And secondly a priest of today:—“The Revolution has had a huge impact, and in 2017 it is a storm which is reaching its climax. Now is the time for us to hunker down, and help one another to survive the storm. This requires total abandonment to God’s Providence, and it requires more prayer and study to navigate and survive in the storm. It is no use hankering for that “Sunday Catholic” life-style which Traditionalists made a great effort to restore after the earthquake of Vatican II. Both the 1950’s and the 1970’s are gone for ever. By this crisis God is purifying His Church, which may be reduced to numbers and to a life-style close to those of the early Church. The beautiful buildings, relics, artwork and museums have been lost once to the Modernists, and they will be lost again to the Muslims, to natural causes, to wars. Let us brace ourselves to see the whole Christian heritage disappear, and as Lot fled Sodom, let us flee Neo-modernist Rome without looking back!
“For let us dream that at the next Conclave in Rome, by a direct intervention of God, the truly best of Cardinals is elected Pope. What could he do to restore the Church? Practically nothing, except offer up all the persecutions that would befall him the day after the election. Why? Because, surely as with President Trump in the United States, all the administrative machinery of the Church would still be in the hands of the Pope’s enemies, and he would not have the good men to replace them. And even if by a series of miracles, the whole of Rome was truly Catholic once more, would not the rest of the world on its present course have become virtually inconvertible? What can now stop mankind from becoming almost totally inhuman, unnatural, unreal? How could even a converted Rome evangelize tomorrow’s Zombies?
“We are going through a New Deluge, that of the Revolution, where the saving Ark which once was Rome has been hijacked by the enemies of God, and they are in the process of scuttling it. The Society of St Pius X was a lifeboat. But since 2012 it has thrown a rope towards the sinking Ark and is now attached to it. We poor souls of the “Resistance” are bobbing up and down on the waters, grabbing at pieces of wood for dear life. And that is how it is, and we had better face the reality around us.”
Kyrie eleison.
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Ok, so perhaps I overreacted SLIGHTLY to the La Salette prophecy.
HOWEVER --
Isn't it a valid charge that many Trads cite the prophecy "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist" as a prediction about the current Conciliar Church with Pope Francis at the head? But that would be torturing and distorting the prophecy to say what we want it to say.
Because the real prophecy says that the Antichrist will be manifest (working demonic miracles, etc.), then Rome will lose the Faith, and then Rome will LITERALLY become the seat of the actual (demonic miracle working) Antichrist!
Sorry, not even Pope Francis fits the description of the Antichrist. He's a fore-runner of AC at best.
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In the Remnant article (posted in another thread), here is an alternate version of the La Salette prophecy:
Quote
Priests and ministers of Christ had become corrupt; they were leading evil lives, full of irreverence, impiety in celebrating Holy Mass; they were in love with money, honors, and pleasures, were sources of impurity. God’s wrath was about to descend upon them if they do not repent. They have forgotten prayer, penance; they have become falling stars, the devil possessing their minds and souls. God will abandon the society, if they do not bring back His people to a good virtuous life. Pius IX, God’s holy and good servant, must not flee Rome again, but must fight evil generously and courageously. Look at Napoleon, his heart and mind are puffed up with pride; he wants to be both a Pope and the Emperor, God will abandon and punish him. Italy will be scourged with wars and much bƖσσdshɛd for trying to throw off the yoke of Christ. Many are leaving the faith, the number of religious and priests abandoning their vocations is vast. In 1864 Lucifer and hordes of his demons will be let loose from hell to capture priests and religious in infidelity. Evil, wicked books are escalating everywhere; people will be displaced from place to place; extraordinary prodigies will take place in nature; heresies will arise everywhere. Woe to the princes of the Church who are interested only in accuмulating riches upon riches. France, Italy, Spain, England will be engulfed in war, in floods of human blood running in the streets; these wars will be both cινιℓ ωαrs and foreign wars. But the persecutors of the Church and her enemies will be destroyed. There will come a time of peace, but only after Paris is set to the torch and Marseilles overrun. God will visit mankind with chastisements for over 35 years. Then, after a period of peace for 25 years, men will again be corrupted by the good life; a prophet precursor of the Antichrist will come on the scene, will conquer many nations by military force, pose as the savior of the world; pests, famines, wars will again chastise the whole world. Finally the antichrist will be born of a Jєωιѕн nun, a false virgin who will be in constant communication with Satan; his father will be a bishop, the Antichrist will pour out blasphemies, terrifying howls; he will perform prodigies, will live a life of extreme wickedness. Rome will lose the faith, will become the Seat of the Antichrist, the Gospel will be preached everywhere in the world.
***snip***
Did the part about the Antichrist working prodigies (demonic false miracles) get "skipped"?
I'm serious. It's an honest question. Everyone loves to quote this, but it's taken completely out of context. I only want the truth here.
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Ok, so perhaps I overreacted SLIGHTLY to the La Salette prophecy.
HOWEVER --
Isn't it a valid charge that many Trads cite the prophecy "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist" as a prediction about the current Conciliar Church with Pope Francis at the head? But that's torturing and distorting the prophecy to say what we want it to say.
Because the real prophecy says that the Antichrist will be manifest (working demonic miracles, etc.), then Rome will lose the Faith, and then Rome will LITERALLY become the seat of the actual (demonic miracle working) Antichrist!
Sorry, not even Pope Francis fits the description of the Antichrist. He's a fore-runner of AC at best.
I think that a lot of people throw this line out there without thinking that it refers to the Real Antichrist. Unless you're in line with the Dimond Brothers, who think that JP2 was the Antichrist, then Traditional Catholics believe that this crisis is a precursor to the final one. After this crisis, we'll have a Restoration of the Church, a period of peace for about 25 years, and then the ULTIMATE crisis ensues, complete with enthronement of Antichrist.
I think, more than anything, people cite it in support of the POSSIBILITY for the Holy See to fall into enemy hands (whether you're an R&R or a sedevacantist in terms of what that means to you).
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I've heard Trads quote this as literally being true today -- "Rome will lose the Faith and become (figuratively) the seat of the Antichrist". They say it without any provisos, further explanation, etc. They believe it literally. They believe Rome has lost the Faith, and is (figuratively) the seat of Antichrist today, Antichrist being the spirit of Modernism, liberalism, communism, and all other demonic errors.
But I must say that such is a silly, ridiculous misuse of this prophecy.
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I've heard Trads quote this as literally being true today -- "Rome will lose the Faith and become (figuratively) the seat of the Antichrist". They say it without any provisos, further explanation, etc. They believe it literally. They believe Rome has lost the Faith, and is (figuratively) the seat of Antichrist today, Antichrist being the spirit of Modernism, liberalism, communism, and all other demonic errors.
But I must say that such is a silly, ridiculous misuse of this prophecy.
Well, I think that +Lefebvre has cited it, and so has +Williamson. I think it's just something people haven't thought deeply about or researched thoroughly.
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Well, I think that +Lefebvre has cited it, and so has +Williamson. I think it's just something people haven't thought deeply about or researched thoroughly.
Well I think it's high time that changed. Is the original prophecy something that exists publicly? Can a French speaker look at the original text and at least verify the translation we're all trusting so implicitly?
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I am a sedevacantist. I know very little about Our Lady of La Salette, though I have heard these prophecies.
Actually, Our Lady of La Salette was talked more by the homeschooling mothers (mostly conservative, Novus Ordo, and Indult) in our homeschool group than in my chapel. In fact, I really can't remember the last time this was brought up by any sedevacantist I know.
I realize that Matthew has known some wacky sedevantists in his life and assumes that most of us think just like the Dimond Brothers, but I really wish he'd stop posting his opinion about what sedevacantists do, say, and believe because most of the time he's either wrong or, as my son says, over-exaggerating.
I just asked two of my adult kids what they know about Our Lady of La Salette. After thinking a moment, my daughter said..."It was an apparition of our Lady? In France?" Essentially, even my kids don't really know anything about La Salette. It's really not a factor in understanding that Bergoglio isn't Catholic.
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Again, my whole purpose for starting this thread:
If Trad Catholics, by the droves, are A) thinking Rome has lost the Faith and B) has become the seat of Antichrist, with a corollary C) that Pope Francis is the Man of Sin himself, don't you think that error/exaggeration is a bad thing?
Error and exaggeration (which turns truth into error, BTW) are always evil, and have evil consequences.
Don't you think some people won't touch Tradition with a 50 foot pole, when they hear such exaggerations from Trads? Like I said, error (which is often the exaggeration of a truth!) doesn't help anyone but satan.
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I am a sedevacantist. I know very little about Our Lady of La Salette, though I have heard these prophecies.
Actually, Our Lady of La Salette was talked more by the homeschooling mothers (mostly conservative, Novus Ordo, and Indult) in our homeschool group than in my chapel. In fact, I really can't remember the last time this was brought up by any sedevacantist I know.
I realize that Matthew has known some wacky sedevantists in his life and assumes that most of us think just like the Dimond Brothers, but I really wish he'd stop posting his opinion about what sedevacantists do, say, and believe because most of the time he's either wrong or, as my son says, over-exaggerating.
I just asked two of my adult kids what they know about Our Lady of La Salette. After thinking a moment, my daughter said..."It was an apparition of our Lady? In France?" Essentially, even my kids don't really know anything about La Salette. It's really not a factor in understanding that Bergoglio isn't Catholic.
Ok, I stand corrected. From now on I'll say "Trads" instead of "Sedes". It's really all Trads.
The person who quoted La Salette most recently to me was affiliated with the Resistance.
I didn't say that all Sedes use this as a basis for their decision. Perhaps SOME considered it as ONE of the factors.
As I said above, if you believe Rome is Antichrist HQ, are you less, the same, or more likely to go full on Sede? The answer, from any honest person, would be MORE LIKELY.
And, as a corollary, if Rome has lost the Faith, and is the seat of Antichrist, doesn't R&R seem quite ridiculous? So I stand by these points.
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Error and exaggeration (which turns truth into error, BTW) are always evil, and have evil consequences.
But the error and exaggeration, when discussing sedevacantists on this forum, are almost always on your part and the part of other anti-sedevacantists.
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But the error and exaggeration, when discussing sedevacantists on this forum, are almost always on your part and the part of other anti-sedevacantists.
What exaggeration? Can you quote something I said that was an exaggeration, much less an error?
Sean Johnson isn't here right now. Take up that fight with him. His fight is not always my fight. The fervent anti-Sedes don't speak for me, and I have no connection to them.
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What exaggeration? Can you quote something I said that was an exaggeration, much less an error?
Sean Johnson isn't here right now. Take up that fight with him. His fight is not always my fight. The fervent anti-Sedes don't speak for me, and I have no connection to them.
Every time you say, "sedevacantists say, or think this, that, or something else", you are usually exaggerating.
The only thing you can say that sedevacantists say or think that is NOT an exaggeration is: "Sedevacantists think that the See of Peter is vacant right now." I've said it before (a long time ago), but this is the only thing that makes someone a sedevacanist. Nothing else is a sedevacantist "belief".
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When I return, will I find Faith? Christ
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The Pope of Rome will never be the anti-Christ. That is a most heretical belief; which is impossible. I do not understand why that prophecy is associated with sedevacantism at all. On the contrary, there are some R&R around who will agree with Martin Luther here and say that if the Pontiff is the anti-Christ himself, that "is not a problem":
Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents. For Paul, in describing Antichrist to the Thessalonians, calls him 2 Thess. 2:3-4: an adversary of Christ, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God. He speaks therefore of one ruling in the Church, not of heathen kings, and he calls this one the adversary of Christ, because he will devise doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, and will assume to himself divine authority.”
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The annotations for Thessalonians II, confirm what I wrote above. The Pope cannot be the Anti-Christ.
"How then can be the Pope be Anti-christ, as the Heretics fondly blaspheme, who is so far from being exalted above God, that he prayeth most humbly not only to Christ, but also to his Blessed Mother and all his Saints".
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31961656_10155633937968691_558210452715208704_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5221b088c314d7052be019661ee0dc9e&oe=5B5394B9)
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31957129_10155633937993691_4588744927357173760_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=6edc7c8ac2caa2b879b45c3e155ae737&oe=5B535796)
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The statements, "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist" and "the Church will be in eclipse" are part of the apparition that was originally approved with an Imprimatur by Monsignor Bishop of Lecce.
The Newchurch, and modernists before it, denied this apparition as a means to exonerate itself and deny the rot that now fills the Vatican and Novus Ordo chapels all across the world. It's no different than the modernists lying about the 3rd secret of Fatima when antipope JPII released the purported "3rd secret" back in 2000 which excluded the revelation of the apostasy of Newchurch eclipsing the true Catholic Faith/Church.
Moreover, the statement "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist" doesn't mean the antipope will be the Antichrist per se. It's only saying that Antichrist will be positioned in Rome some way.
the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place ~ Matthew 24:15-21
the man of sin - the son of perdition sitteth in the Temple of God ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
The "holy place" and "Temple of God" can only mean the Holy Tabernacle. This means chapels that have tabernacles for the sole purpose of housing our Lord, but the counterfeit church replaced Him with somethings else that is diabolical.
The "Temple" doesn't refer to the 3rd "temple" that is to be built in Jerusalem. That can never be a true Temple of God because it's of Antichrist Jєωs.
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Great points, Croix.
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The statements, "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist" and "the Church will be in eclipse" are part of the apparition that was originally approved with an Imprimatur by Monsignor Bishop of Lecce.
The Newchurch, and modernists before it, denied this apparition as a means to exonerate itself and deny the rot that now fills the Vatican and Novus Ordo chapels all across the world. It's no different than the modernists lying about the 3rd secret of Fatima when antipope JPII released the purported "3rd secret" back in 2000 which excluded the revelation of the apostasy of Newchurch eclipsing the true Catholic Faith/Church.
Moreover, the statement "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist" doesn't mean the antipope will be the Antichrist per se. It's only saying that Antichrist will be positioned in Rome some way.
the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place ~ Matthew 24:15-21
the man of sin - the son of perdition sitteth in the Temple of God ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
The "holy place" and "Temple of God" can only mean the Holy Tabernacle. This means chapels that have tabernacles for the sole purpose of housing our Lord, but the counterfeit church replaced Him with somethings else that is diabolical.
The "Temple" doesn't refer to the 3rd "temple" that is to be built in Jerusalem. That can never be a true Temple of God because it's of Antichrist Jєωs.
Thank you! That is how I understood it also.
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The statements, "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist" and "the Church will be in eclipse" are part of the apparition that was originally approved with an Imprimatur by Monsignor Bishop of Lecce.
Moreover, the statement "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist" doesn't mean the antipope will be the Antichrist per se. It's only saying that Antichrist will be positioned in Rome some way.
A couple problems with your opinion/personal opinion here:
1. This interpretation has not received any ecclesiastical approbation whatsoever, much less an imprimatur.
2. Say "that Antichrist will be positioned" is highly problematic. You fail to personify the Antichrist. You're suggesting that the Antichrist will be a tendency, a movement, or a "spirit" rather than a MAN. Catholic Tradition is unanimous that the Antichrist will be an actual man, who will not suffer (allow) any other worship than to himself. Even Pope Francis totally fails this litmus test. So do the conciliar Church and the novus ordo Mass! They allow us to love God (though they do a lousy job of leading us there), to pray as much as we want, etc. They are just dangerous, ineffective, counter-productive, and mixed with poison.
Some Scripture passages have a figurative meaning as well as a literal one. For example, Our Lord's prophecy of the End of the World predicted elements of the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, as well as the end of the world itself.
I would put forth that any prophecy that speaks only of a "figurative" Antichrist is pretty useless. THAT Antichrist has been with us for centuries! The whole spirit of liberalism, exaltation of man over God, etc. is nothing new. Every single government on earth today would be guilty of being "a seat of Antichrist" in that respect.
I doubt Our Lady or Our Lord would lower themselves to making such a banal prediction. So what I suggest is that Our Lady was predicting the ACTUAL, FLESH AND BLOOD Antichrist with a capital A. Also known as "the Man of Sin"
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http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-163/LaSalette1.html (http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-163/LaSalette1.html)
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-164/LaSalette2.html (http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-164/LaSalette2.html)
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-165/LaSalette3.html (http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-165/LaSalette3.html)
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-168/LaSalette4.htm (http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-168/LaSalette4.htm)
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-169/LaSalette5.htm (http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-169/LaSalette5.htm)
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-171/LaSalette6.htm (http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-171/LaSalette6.htm)
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-175/LaSalette7.htm (http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-175/LaSalette7.htm)
It takes a l o n g time to read all this but one might find it worth the effort.
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It was not so long reading, but a must to read. Thank you for this!
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If Chapter 12 of Daniel is true: The Mass will come to an end, and I believe it is and we are almost there, then we can expect the evils of the world to happen!
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The Pope of Rome will never be the anti-Christ. That is a most heretical belief; which is impossible.
A true pope cannot be Antichrist, but Antichrist will likely be an anti-pope (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/antichrist-is-an-anti-pope/msg417181/#msg417181).
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It takes a l o n g time to read all this but one might find it worth the effort.
A few years ago I made it a point to read up on the Marian apparitions. When I came upon Our Lady of LaSalette it made a deep impression on me, especially the image of Our Lady weeping. She has been weeping a long time. Her sorrow is great, greater than at the foot of the cross. For then she had hope of the resurrection. I am a child of the pre-V2 era. I see the crying image and it becomes my distress. I have given up the hope of the church restored. Mother Angelica said she prayed that the Lord take her when the worst is over, she has been gone almost two years exactly. I cling to every morsel of good news.
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I was removed from the church as a child (my parents believed the post V2 church had apostacized) I have been searching for what I lost my entire life. No one came door to door looking for us. Except JW's.
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Guess you haven't been to Italy lately.
It's only nominally Catholic, akin tp the Jєωs. It's cultural, but not practiced religion.
I don't pay any attention to La Sallette but Bergoglio is an archetype of antichrist/ false prophet.
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Not that the rot is a good thing, nor that Christ can will evil, but he can will to permit evil for a greater good, and in the meantime all Catholics are entitled, even obliged, to resist the rot as best they can.
This is nonsense. The ends never justify the means.
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I was told many years ago that the Church never approved the message but did approve the vision. I didn't understand it then and the priest explained that the Church at that time just could not grasp the idea of Rome becoming the seat of Antichrist.
I think if the sedevacantist has used that phrase it is because today it is obvious, however today it would be impossible for the Church to approve it if you are considering Vatican II, to be the Church.
I do not!
I just wrote this post and placed it on myforever.blog this very moment to explain why Vatican II is not the Church. Therefore if it is not the Church it must be Anti-Christ.
Authority exists to the Churches, not the Church living for the sake of authority. Authority is a concern for the sheep; read John 21; 15-17. “Feed My sheep.”
This Authority or Power; “Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God.”
We see here how God has given authority to His Church to feed His sheep, as in John 21; 15-17.
What happens in the case of the current “pope” who is not feeding the sheep? Is Vatican II a church that has adapted to the world existing; existing only for the sake of said authority? NO!
This jurisdiction/power is gone. God will not be mocked.
Does the Church that Christ found still exist. OF COURSE and with AUTHORITY!
He has said, about His second coming, ” the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?” Luke 18:8
Seek the Traditional Catholic Faith