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Offline Hyperdox Nick

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« on: October 25, 2013, 04:27:28 PM »
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  • Hello all!

    I thought that it would be interesting to start this thread and see what happens. I'm a convert from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy. I converted after a lengthy process of study, prayer, discussions with people on both sides, and at the end of it all attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

    From what I've found, the Orthodox have the most historically consistent track record of ecclesiology, doctrine/ teaching of Faith, and practice/ Liturgy (the place where one's Faith is formed). All the changes that resulted in the Great Schism, and further changes afterwards, were solidly on the side of Rome. These changes were built up on the basis of an altered conception of authority, that was not Catholic, in that it was not recognized (by the universal Church... including Christians outside the direct hierarchy of Rome) as part of the Faith passed on from Christ to the Apostles and onwards through time.

    Essentially, the Roman Church has been building on sand for the past thousand-plus years. Given the "diversity" in Faith (notably in the Liturgy, but also between various movements within the Church) as well as new versions of the Church every few hundred years or so (keeping up with the times?) it's a house built on sand, currently in the process of collapse.

    Since I don't want any future generations of my family to be damaged in Faith when someone tells them that the Novus Ordo (or whatever the new liturgical innovation happens to be) is perfectly fine, "just another tradition", leaving the Roman realm seems necessary.

    The Orthodox have their own problems, but these don't seem to seriously impact Faith. Due to their conciliar structure that they've always had... it's easier to correct others for mistakes in Faith than in the hierarchical, authoritative Roman Catholic Church... they've best maintained the Apostolic Faith.

    I'm not sure where this post will lead. My intent is less to convert people (that's the job of the Holy Spirit), but more to get all of this out there to a semi-sympathetic audience. Any discussion from here, I hope, will lead people towards Truth.


    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #1 on: October 25, 2013, 04:32:03 PM »
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  • I know a little about Eastern Orthodoxy and I have a few relatives who are members of one of the Eastern Orthodox churches (I forget which one). I think they are closer to the truth than the Novus Ordo. When you were Catholic were you a member of the Novus Ordo sect which most members here consider to be illegitimate and no longer the true Church of Christ? or were you a member of one of the more traditional Catholic groups such as the SSPX or the CMRI who try to follow the Church's teachings from before the second vatican council?
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline songbird

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    « Reply #2 on: October 25, 2013, 04:45:32 PM »
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  • Question?  there are many rites that come under "Eastern" where are you?

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 05:03:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    Question?  there are many rites that come under "Eastern" where are you?


    His introduction post says he's OCA.

    Nick, it's good that you found this forum.  Considering that you do not seem to have ever been exposed to the Catholic Faith in its integrity (having come from the Novus Ordo), hopefully your time here will result in the illumination of your mind and soul by Our Lord Jesus Christ.  May the All-Holy Theotokos (Deipara immaculata) place you under her mantle. :smile:

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 05:08:01 PM »
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  •  :heretic:
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #5 on: October 25, 2013, 05:17:00 PM »
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  • The OCA is the Novus Ordo of the Orthodox,  by the way.

    The ROCOR is the most traditional of all jurisdictions.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Hyperdox Nick

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    « Reply #6 on: October 25, 2013, 05:37:25 PM »
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  • Ok, fill me in! I think we're less divergent than it may seem on the surface. I've never much explored the world of Sedevacantism or SSPX. I always thought it was like the Roman Catholic equivalent of army bootcamp.

    Can we agree that many, if not most of the current Roman Catholic practices misrepresent the Faith? And that Faith is a living connection with the Triune God?

    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 05:42:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
    Can we agree that many, if not most of the current Roman Catholic practices misrepresent the Faith? And that Faith is a living connection with the Triune God?

    I agree that after Vatican II, the Novus Ordo misrepresents the faith. I believe that the Novus Ordo religion is a different religion with no faith that replaced the Catholic religion and that nearly all of the faithful who attend the Novus Ordo and nearly all the "priests" in the Novus Ordo in truth have no faith at all. But I believe that the religion of the Catholic Church before Vatican II was the true religion which you would not agree with because you believe the Catholic Church has been a false Church for many centuries. I am not an expert though, there are many others here who know more about the faith than I do.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Hyperdox Nick

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    « Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 05:47:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto

    I agree that after Vatican II in the Novus Ordo misrepresents the faith. I believe that the Novus Ordo religion is a different religion with no faith that replaced the Catholic religion and that nearly all of the faithful who attend the Novus Ordo and nearly all the "priests" in the Novus Ordo in truth have no faith at all. But I believe that the religion of the Catholic Church before Vatican II was the true religion which you would not agree with because you believe the Catholic Church has been a false Church for many centuries.



    No, not all false, just in schism and drifting around a bit pre-V2. From what I've heard, when Orthodox visit Roman Catholic churches for Latin Mass, they still "get it"... some of the emphases of Faith are different and we miss having icons, but overall it's at least familiar to a degree.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #9 on: October 25, 2013, 05:49:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    The OCA is the Novus Ordo of the Orthodox,  by the way.

    The ROCOR is the most traditional of all jurisdictions.


    Well, besides the Old Calendarists and Old Believers, both of whom have "anathematized" both ROCOR (which has now been re-united to the Moscow Patriarchate) and OCA.  The former is rejected by the Old Calendarists because it is staffed by KGB agents; therefore, on account of openly being Donatists, the Old Calendarists reject all of their sacraments, including baptism, as invalid.  On top of this, everybody else adopted the Gregorian Calendar and therefore are rejected by the Old Calendarists as heretics, once again with entirely invalid sacraments -- no priests, no baptism, nothing.

    Old Believers of course hold to the same Donatist error, but they are even more extreme, their schism (within a schism) going back to the XVIIth century reform of the Russian liturgy to unify it with Greek praxis, from which it had at some point diverged.  This introduces the problem, too, of whose practice was more ancient.  Was the true practice of crossing oneself lost ?  Were the true prayers lost ?  There is no way to affirm the matter one way or another without an appeal to scholarship or to an a priori declaration of victory for one side or another.  Ultimately, the Faith is not based on any consistent and coherent ancient tradition rooted in the Apostles, then; one's proximate rule of faith is in a mass of probabilities, the sympathy to which is often determined by ethnic affiliation.  As such, some Old Believers believe there are no priests left on the earth.  Like the Old Calendarists, they have anthematized both ROCOR, OCA, and all the rest; but they have also anathematized the Old Calendarists, as well as other Old Believers.  And vice versa !

    There is nobody within the falsely so-called "Orthodox" churches that could possibly gainsay these anathemae, since amongst their factions there is no unique arbiter and judge of matters of Faith endowed with divine authority over the various different bodies who can pass a final decision on these matters.  The only thing that the New Calendar Greeks or others who have strayed from the ancient liturgical praxis of either the Russian or Greek liturgies could possibly do is anathematize them back.  But who is right ?  One would necessarily be at an impasse to find an Apostolic foundation for any legal mechanism that would be supplied to the faithful as a recourse for this disunity of faith, governance, and liturgy.  The only recourse, then, is energetic repetition of one's position and the threat of violence.  Usually, if a union is forged by a large number of the Orthodox, it is reliant on political pressure and careerist compromise to push it through.  One's confidence in one's faith is therefore unsustainable within the Eastern sects, since it is demonstrably compromised by intrigue and ex post facto appeals to consensus and institutional inertia.  Perhaps that is why wars against perceived foreign enemies and ethnic chauvinism have become such vital elements wherever there are proud "Orthodox" to insist on their membership in the True Church.  That is one of the truest ways to ensure enthusiastic membership -- to root it not in the pure doctrines that have been preserved from the fathers but rather to moor it in ethnic pride, carnal concerns, and blatant fideism.

    This absurd state of affairs, of course, is belied by the existence of a Church that has a systematic theology and legal tradition taught and preserved by a unique head whose office therefore assures unity of Faith, of governance, and of sacraments -- and this office is backed up by the revelations within the Holy Scriptures and by immemorial Tradition dating to the earliest times and then shining forth in the writings and confessions of the Church Fathers.  In the fact of this, the Orthodox have no systematic theological system or ecclesial authority to give weight to their appeal.  They only have their insistence on being right, a position backed up by nothing but their own word.  The Orthodox are similar to the fideistic Protestant fundamentalists in that way, then.  Perhaps that is why they appeal so often to liturgical spirituality in the face of metaphysical arguments.  Ultimately, when the original schism is more about being Greek or Egyptian or Russian -- rather than being under one of those Latin scoundrels (condemned as such a priori, but such is the way of things) -- than about the Faith, that is all one has : Vague appeals to mystery, belief in the novelties of divine energies, uncreated light, hesychasm, rejection of Purgatory/Tollhouses, rejection of the Immaculate Conception (All-Holiness of Mary), rejection of the Assumption, etc.  When one's faith is ultimately rooted in not being subject to the Petrine See of Rome, soon one's Faith morphs into a giant reaction to and rejection of whatever the Latins do.  And now the Greeks reject teachings held by the unanimous moral consensus of the Fathers.  But don't worry, at least they aren't subject to the "tyranny" of "Roman legalism" which is untrustworthy -- never mind the explicit promise of Christ that the Holy Ghost would always preserve the Faith of St Peter.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #10 on: October 25, 2013, 05:58:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
    Quote from: Matto

    I agree that after Vatican II in the Novus Ordo misrepresents the faith. I believe that the Novus Ordo religion is a different religion with no faith that replaced the Catholic religion and that nearly all of the faithful who attend the Novus Ordo and nearly all the "priests" in the Novus Ordo in truth have no faith at all. But I believe that the religion of the Catholic Church before Vatican II was the true religion which you would not agree with because you believe the Catholic Church has been a false Church for many centuries.


    No, not all false, just in schism and drifting around a bit pre-V2. From what I've heard, when Orthodox visit Roman Catholic churches for Latin Mass, they still "get it"... some of the emphases of Faith are different and we miss having icons, but overall it's at least familiar to a degree.


    We use icons, they just haven't been popular in liturgical art in recent times.  Much like how the Russians stopped widely creating and revering new icons for centuries after the Romanov dynasty rose to power.  They usually put large paintings in the great churches of Saint-Petersburg and Moscow, etc., and this apparently for several centuries.  Thankfully, the simple Russian people did not know the difference and most believed they were Catholics in union with the Holy See all along (at least implicitly).*

    * See the fourth post on this thread.



    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #11 on: October 25, 2013, 05:59:46 PM »
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  • I have a question for you, Hyperdox Nick. Many of us, who call ourselves traditional Catholics believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is not valid, and also that the New rites of ordination of Priests and consecration of Bishops are also invalid. So some of us believe that most of the priests in the Novus Ordo are not true priests. What do the Orthodox believe about this? Do you believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is a true valid Mass? and do you believe that priests ordained in the New rite of ordination and Bishops consecrated in the new rite are valid priests and bishops?
    R.I.P.
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    Offline Hyperdox Nick

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    « Reply #12 on: October 25, 2013, 06:03:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    Quote from: Cantarella
    The OCA is the Novus Ordo of the Orthodox,  by the way.

    The ROCOR is the most traditional of all jurisdictions.


    Well, besides the Old Calendarists and Old Believers, both of whom have "anathematized" both ROCOR (which has now been re-united to the Moscow Patriarchate) and OCA.  The former is rejected by the Old Calendarists because it is staffed by KGB agents; therefore, on account of openly being Donatists, the Old Calendarists reject all of their sacraments, including baptism, as invalid.  On top of this, everybody else adopted the Gregorian Calendar and therefore are rejected by the Old Calendarists as heretics, once again with entirely invalid sacraments -- no priests, no baptism, nothing.

    Old Believers of course hold to the same Donatist error, but they are even more extreme, their schism (within a schism) going back to the XVIIth century reform of the Russian liturgy to unify it with Greek praxis, from which it had at some point diverged.  This introduces the problem, too, of whose practice was more ancient.  Was the true practice of crossing oneself lost ?  Were the true prayers lost ?  There is no way to affirm the matter one way or another without an appeal to scholarship or to an a priori declaration of victory for one side or another.  Ultimately, the Faith is not based on any consistent and coherent ancient tradition rooted in the Apostles, then; one's proximate rule of faith is in a mass of probabilities, the sympathy to which is often determined by ethnic affiliation.  As such, some Old Believers believe there are no priests left on the earth.  Like the Old Calendarists, they have anthematized both ROCOR, OCA, and all the rest; but they have also anathematized the Old Calendarists, as well as other Old Believers.  And vice versa !

    There is nobody within the falsely so-called "Orthodox" churches that could possibly gainsay these anathemae, since amongst their factions there is no unique arbiter and judge of matters of Faith endowed with divine authority over the various different bodies who can pass a final decision on these matters.  The only thing that the New Calendar Greeks or others who have strayed from the ancient liturgical praxis of either the Russian or Greek liturgies could possibly do is anathematize them back.  But who is right ?  One would necessarily be at an impasse to find an Apostolic foundation for any legal mechanism that would be supplied to the faithful as a recourse for this disunity of faith, governance, and liturgy.  The only recourse, then, is energetic repetition of one's position and the threat of violence.  Usually, if a union is forged by a large number of the Orthodox, it is reliant on political pressure and careerist compromise to push it through.  One's confidence in one's faith is therefore unsustainable within the Eastern sects, since it is demonstrably compromised by intrigue and ex post facto appeals to consensus and institutional inertia.  Perhaps that is why wars against perceived foreign enemies and ethnic chauvinism have become such vital elements wherever there are proud "Orthodox" to insist on their membership in the True Church.  That is one of the truest ways to ensure enthusiastic membership -- to root it not in the pure doctrines that have been preserved from the fathers but rather to moor it in ethnic pride, carnal concerns, and blatant fideism.

    This absurd state of affairs, of course, is belied by the existence of a Church that has a systematic theology and legal tradition taught and preserved by a unique head whose office therefore assures unity of Faith, of governance, and of sacraments -- and this office is backed up by the revelations within the Holy Scriptures and by immemorial Tradition dating to the earliest times and then shining forth in the writings and confessions of the Church Fathers.  In the fact of this, the Orthodox have no systematic theological system or ecclesial authority to give weight to their appeal.  They only have their insistence on being right, a position backed up by nothing but their own word.  The Orthodox are similar to the fideistic Protestant fundamentalists in that way, then.  Perhaps that is why they appeal so often to liturgical spirituality in the face of metaphysical arguments.  Ultimately, when the original schism is more about being Greek or Egyptian or Russian -- rather than being under one of those Latin scoundrels (condemned as such a priori, but such is the way of things) -- than about the Faith, that is all one has : Vague appeals to mystery, belief in the novelties of divine energies, uncreated light, hesychasm, rejection of Purgatory/Tollhouses, rejection of the Immaculate Conception (All-Holiness of Mary), rejection of the Assumption, etc.  When one's faith is ultimately rooted in not being subject to the Petrine See of Rome, soon one's Faith morphs into a giant reaction to and rejection of whatever the Latins do.  And now the Greeks reject teachings held by the unanimous moral consensus of the Fathers.  But don't worry, at least they aren't subject to the "tyranny" of "Roman legalism" which is untrustworthy -- never mind the explicit promise of Christ that the Holy Ghost would always preserve the Faith of St Peter.



    Well, what would you like me to say? Is unity of Communion really more substantive than unity of Faith? Are the metaphysical arguments stronger than the Holy Spirit, who shapes people in the image of Christ during Divine Liturgy?

    Offline Hyperdox Nick

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    « Reply #13 on: October 25, 2013, 06:13:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I have a question for you, Hyperdox Nick. Many of us, who call ourselves traditional Catholics believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is not valid, and also that the New rites of ordination of Priests and consecration of Bishops are also invalid. So some of us believe that most of the priests in the Novus Ordo are not true priests. What do the Orthodox believe about this? Do you believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is a true valid Mass? and do you believe that priests ordained in the New rite of ordination and Bishops consecrated in the new rite are valid priests and bishops?



    Well, we hope and pray that people still receive the Body and Blood of Christ in the Novus Ordo Mass, that they may be healed in body and soul. We don't use terms like "valid" or "invalid" since legal categories aren't the most substantive thing... the True Faith is what's most substantive. Usually, if you were to press the question, we'd say that based on the apostolic succession of bishops and the priests they ordain and their intent to consecrate the Eucharist (even though they are deficient in Faith), the Eucharist is still the Body and Blood of Christ. But really, the current Western innovations aren't our prerogative, and we don't want any part in them.

    The Novus Ordo Mass certainly is lacking as an expression of Faith, and most Orthodox also regret that the Latin Mass was thrown out, since it was necessary to keep the Western world spiritually afloat.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 06:37:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
    Well, what would you like me to say?


    I would like you to reflect on what I wrote.

    Quote
    Is unity of Communion really more substantive than unity of Faith?


    One must have unity of Faith to have unity of communion

    Quote
    Are the metaphysical arguments stronger than the Holy Spirit, who shapes people in the image of Christ during Divine Liturgy?


    Metaphysical and theological arguments are no threat to the Holy Ghost, since the Truth cannot contradict itself.  If the mind cannot know the Truth, however, and if Faith and reason can contradict one another, then no true Faith is possible, and one's religion is being made up as one goes along.  In the Catholic Church, we have both the sanctifying power of the grace of the Holy Ghost and we affirm that the True Faith appeals to the rational faculties of the human mind.  Thus, the Faith should make sense, otherwise there would be no compelling force that would move one to believe in it beyond some charismatic experience of grace that manifests itself in a manner entirely beyond examination.  

    If that is the case, though, then what business do you have defending your sect's claims or engaging in this discourse at all ?  It wouldn't matter if one was Greek or Russian or Spanish, since we would all basically be Montanists or Pentecostals, anyway. A Faith based on private experiences rather than public Revelation and authoritative teaching is, for the record, also vulnerable to the claims of Mohammed of the Hagarenes and Joseph Smith of the Mormons, both of whom claimed that a private faith experience of a new revelation.  How could I say that they were wrong in their testimony ?

    No, the Church is a public and visible body/assembly (ecclesia) of the faithful followers of Christ who have been regenerated by Baptism.  As such, they must bear the marks of unity through a common Faith, common sacraments, and common jurisdiction (one cannot claim to be a representative of the Church unless he shares the same mission as the Apostles, which necessitates continuity from theme).  The Church must bear the four marks of the Mystical Body of Christ, namely it must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.  No body that cannot prove that it is the same institution with the same sacraments and same doctrines and same offices as those passed down by the Apostles could ever claim to be the Catholic Church.

    The soul's deification through the liturgical ceremonies by which the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity is increased is of course good (indeed, the highest of goods to be had), but this can only be found in the Church, and the Church is recognizable and its doctrines reasonable.  Other formulations of what the Church is and how the Faith is are incoherent and impossible.  As such, there is no holiness in one who is united to the Catholic Church, the Ark of Salvation.  Outside of it, all perish in the Flood.